Record number of environmental activists murdered • Hacker News Board

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#161

Post by markenqualitaet » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #116

markenqualitaet wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a cynical question, which derails the conversation into an arbitrary technical debate. It implies/hints at/suggests there is methological issue. Murder is not some statistical event you have to expect, account for. Language/communication doesn't work the way you argue here. There is context. OP's question would be valid and common for science on e.g. the connection of total brain cancers and smartphone usage…

> No, it's a cynical question No. The cynicism is the insistence that it doesn't matter. > ...which derails the conversation If the answer were "There has been a decrease in the total number of activists, therefore the record is worse that the absolute numbers imply" would you make this accusation? No. No you would not. You would insist, correctly, that it was very relevant. You would rightly look with suspicion upon…

No I would not make the argument in reverse as you suggested. Not in this context. This is atypical murder. The proliferation of murder is the only metric that matters. This is not your average crime context. It's more or less legitimate businesses/corporations stepping out of legitimate methods. Any murder in this context is noteworthy, an increase points at a catastrophic development of uncontained corporate power. A junkie killig someone in a robbery does not damage the foundations of our current society, where coca cola killing a union worker does. No amount of murder is to be expected, or assumed here, regardless of the activism extend. It's categorically different to "common murder".

Likewise you wouldn't discuss a rise in Al Qaeda terrorist attacks in relation to US population growth, or cartel excutions in relation to Mexico's birth rate. What you are interested in is the number of organized, state-like, violent offenders only, not the pool of their victims.

I hope my point gets across. Not a native speaker.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#162

Post by philipkglass » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

anticodon wrote: post #155

parsimo2010 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ozone isn’t a halocarbon and it doesn’t “reach” the stratosphere, it’s formed there. It’s also not a mystery; the upper ozone layer is formed from atmospheric oxygen and radiation from the sun. Since your predicating information is false then whatever conspiracy theory you’re implying probably isn’t true. And while I’m sure some companies profited from prohibiting CFCs, stopping ozone depletion is one of the few thin…

Since your predicating information is false then whatever conspiracy theory you’re implying probably isn’t true. Halocarbons are heavier than air, they cannot travel up to stratosphere which is 10 to 50 km up in the air. Which is predicating information about why CFCs were bad. If a few companies made money from it that’s fine. It would be great if we could tie a profit motive to fixing climate change. Exactly. Both…

The Earth's atmosphere is homogeneous up to about 100 km from the surface:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosphere

That includes the ozone layer.

Gases don't stratify in the lower atmosphere. Pure argon is heavier than oxygen and nitrogen, but it does not sink down from the atmosphere to form a concentrated surface layer. Neither do CFCs.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#163

Post by scatters » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

oefrha wrote: post #153

scatters wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course multinationals are Western - they're creatures of the Western system of bilateral investor-rights treaties and the largely Anglo-American corporate legal system. Chinese and Russian companies may operate outside their own territory, but they don't have the distributed ownership and management to qualify as multinational.

Coming up with your own narrow definition of a widely accepted term and attacking someone else for using its widely accepted definition is a one-way ticket to a toxic interaction, which ends here.

Huh, you're right - guess that comes from growing up during the '80s, when "multinational corporation" was practically synonymous with "transnational corporation". My bad and thanks for the correction.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#164

Post by AtlasBarfed » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage."

With inequality worsening, and the existential threat to humanity generally revolving around cooperation and the surrender of resources...

Bad times are coming.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#165

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

q1w2 wrote: post #142

beowulfey wrote: post #26

Here is the original report [1]. For those of you who quip that the number of environmental activists has also been increasing in recent years (talk about being so close to realizing the point), I also want to clarify that Global Witness, the NGO who put out the report, has only been tracking these numbers since 2012. [1] https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/environmental-act...

It looks like these are mostly journalists being killed covering things like the drug trade or gang activities in developing countries. I don't see any connection to the deaths and climate change.

[deleted]

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#166

Post by kodah » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

yunohn wrote: post #110

rendall wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think that these murders (as stable or as decreasing as you believe them to be) should not be reported on? Personally, I don't like this kind of discourse. It gets people excited, anxious, and not thinking clearly, as intended. That would be ok with me maybe, if there ever were some good results from that (e.g. effective environmental control, or good legislation), but there never, ever is. I could go throug…

Effectively you’re saying that a status quo of stable-percentage murders is okay. I (and others on this post) are saying that any non-zero percentage is bad. So I guess we fundamentally disagree then.

Nobody thinks murder is okay, and if this is the way you conduct discourse you're probably working against your own goals.

There is a lot more behind a statistic than just a number or trend-line, one which often requires single or multiple policy changes that could take years. So yes, observing that the trend line goes and keeps going down is good, a sharp rise is a cause for concern. That is not the same thing, at all, as thinking the status quo is just fine.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#167

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

markenqualitaet wrote: post #158

TeMPOraL wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. It's pretty decent. It does go a bit downhill later on, but I'd say in the late S3 and S4 (I blame it on the show being cut short and having to wrap up everything too quickly). In the genre of "seemingly a crime show, but really a deep sci-fi", I'd strongly recommend Person of Interest , if you haven't seen it already. It contains what I consider to be, to date, the best discussion of the topic of general artif…

Thanks! I tried PoI, but it didn't catch me (first ep only). Maybe I try again. I would love a good, techy private detective series. Would love to find something like Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, as a series. For me, in Germany, Breaking Bad was the series which changed the game. After breaking bad, TV became the superior story vessel. There were some good series before, but after BB "everyone" around saw the appeal.…

Thanks, I'll revisit BB.

Going by your explanation, I understand you like serialized TV shows - vs. episodic ones. I'm not sure if BB was the turning point there - there's been a steady change in preferences from episodic to serialized over the decades now, probably starting with invention of VCR, and reaching full speed when Netflix introduced their streaming service.

PoI is somewhere in the middle. In S1, most episodes stand on their own, but they do spin out story arcs, that start to dominate later on. By S4, it's almost entirely serialized - but in a good way. It's definitely binge-friendly (I've done it multiple times, and didn't get bored yet).

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#168

Post by hammyhavoc » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 12:54 AM UTC

vivferrari wrote: post #109

Every electronic good you buy contributes to these murders. The raw material sourced in these places are used for manufacture of these products and environmental activism threatens their ability to continue to exploit nature and profit from it.

Any potential solutions other than demanding circular products?

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#169

Post by hammyhavoc » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 12:57 AM UTC

throwaway8689 wrote: post #66

What do the BBC or Global Witness want me to do with this information? Edit: Global Witness are campaigners. What do they want to happen as a consequence of writing this report? In 2003 possibly the biggest march London ever saw, failed to stop the UK going to war in Iraq, and nobody got killed on the march. Sabotage with a monkey wrench does tend to make a practical difference but also means you're at risk of a beat…

What does any publication want you to do with any information? Consume, share, justify and ensure their continued existence.

Re: Record number of environmental activists murdered

#170

Post by oefrha » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 12:26 PM UTC

scatters wrote: post #163

oefrha wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming up with your own narrow definition of a widely accepted term and attacking someone else for using its widely accepted definition is a one-way ticket to a toxic interaction, which ends here.

Huh, you're right - guess that comes from growing up during the '80s, when "multinational corporation" was practically synonymous with "transnational corporation". My bad and thanks for the correction.

Okay, appreciate the apology.