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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

nltimes.nl

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#401

Post by irtigor »

arnaudsm wrote: post #300
yawnxyz wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ruling against Uber doesn't seem to affect Blablacar, a European competitor that lets you set your own prices. If anything, Uber should let you set prices, and show a competitive market price.

I wouldn't compare Blablacar with Uber. Most drivers use the service once a month to cover fuel cost and meet people during occasional trips.

I agree with you in my area it replaces some FB groups for long distance drives/hitchhiking (a hour or more of driving is not unusual), but not taxis/uber, because the driver sets a price, when they will arrive and where they will meet/drop you (usually a gas station), it is also generally true that it is just gas money (cheaper than a uber fare of the same distance). There is a uber-like service where the passenger makes a fare offer and if I'm not mistaken the driver can make a counter offer, it is called indriver, but I don't know if it exists there.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#402

Post by ChicagoDave »

blueboo wrote: post #372
ChicagoDave wrote: post #354

If this ever happens in the U.S. I won't bother with driving Uber anymore and this would probably put them out of business. The Taxi industry will win back from the disruption that Uber caused. This has nothing to do with worker's rights. No one gave a crap about Taxi driver's work standards and they are/were treated worse than Uber drivers. This is all about the Taxi industry fighting back. 75% of all ride share dri…

A recent study suggests Chicago drivers earn less than minimum wage. > After accounting for driving expenses and self-employment taxes, the average TNP driver in Chicago earns about 3% to 5% less than minimum wage. In 2019, drivers earned $12.30 per hour, or 5% less than the city’s minimum wage of $13 per hour at the time. In 2020, drivers earn slightly above minimum wage, but the hourly rate of pay was artificially…

I 100% refute that story. After taxes I’m still making close to $30/hr. I get to write off mileage at $.58/mile so my taxes get lowered.

I can show anyone my weekly driver log that shows how many hours I drove and how much I was paid. It is at least $42/hr and on weekends it can be $50/hr.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#403

Post by ChicagoDave »

dml2135 wrote: post #384
ChicagoDave wrote: post #354

If this ever happens in the U.S. I won't bother with driving Uber anymore and this would probably put them out of business. The Taxi industry will win back from the disruption that Uber caused. This has nothing to do with worker's rights. No one gave a crap about Taxi driver's work standards and they are/were treated worse than Uber drivers. This is all about the Taxi industry fighting back. 75% of all ride share dri…

Do you mind if I ask your methodology for the $42/hour number? Do you take your vehicle's depreciation into account?

If I subtract my entire vehicle cost over three years, I’m still making $25/hr or more.

But everyone seems to forget that it’s the independence that driver’s love. I can turn the app on/off whenever I feel like it. That’s a level of freedom that no other “job” offers.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#404

Post by ClumsyPilot »

dahfizz wrote: post #385
Volundr wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can easily kill off competition using this by eating the labor supply. I'm not at all sure they can. You haven't really explained here why Uber is apparently capable of hiring all drivers and starving the labor pool, yet Applebees can't use the same strategy for cooks, or Amazon the same strategy for warehouse workers or software engineers. Calling them "moronic regulators" without explaining why the same mode…

There are meaningful alternatives for your examples. If you didn't want to work at Applebees, you could work at Chilis. Right now, I would be willing to bet that a large majority of Lyft drivers also drive for Uber. Uber is so much larger that there is no real alternative. If the law makes it so that drivers can choose only one rideshare app, they will all choose Uber because its bigger.

This is an extraordinary claim, this has never been a problem in a major city in recorded history.

The idea that Uber would pay drivers so much to have extra drivers just sitting around doing nothing is absurd. The idea that there would be no suitable drivers left to other firms to hire is absurd.

If any of this claim made sence, then this would have happened 50 years ago, we've had drivers around for a while.

Yet it does not happen in haulage where drivers are actual professionals, it does not happen for solicitors where labour supply is way more constrained. What do you have to backup your claim?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#405

Post by dantheman »

tmathmeyer wrote: post #352
dantheman wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we get companies and government out of healthcare?

you just want no health care at all then?

Nope, how about you just buy insurance outside of the workplace like any other thing.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#406

Post by jb1991 »

jacquesm wrote: post #147
jb1991 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to point out, that a BV and an LLC are very different, in that anyone can have an LLC in the USA but the tax reporting requirements and overhead for a BV in NL are quite high and don't make much sense to anyone with an income less then.. well, quite high, by most standards. I know a lot of freelance software engineers in the netherlands, but none have a BV.

I know a lot of freelance software engineers in the Netherlands and quite a few of them do. BV starts to make sense from about 100K turnover because you gain some tax advantages, it also makes working for larger entities easier and it allows you to charge a higher rate and to be in an easier position to work with subcontractors. It all depends on what you want, there are plenty of ZZP'ers in software development on t…

Doesn't change my point though that a BV is an unfair comparison to an LLC.

Also your threshold of 100K does not align with my accountant's, who said it was at least 200K to justify the added overhead.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#407

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

devcpp wrote: post #281
rapind wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest if there was government provided universal healthcare, basic income, and housing guarantees I would totally agree. It would create a ton more mobility, and take a lot of power away from employers.

Let people opt into those things, or make it up to local law and let municipalities compete on services.

That comes from a privileged point of view. People with little skills will be coerced to give up these things and the cost will be shifted on other people.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#408

Post by TuringNYC »

delusional wrote: post #388
Closi wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are quite a few options. It took me about a minute to think of the below, so I'm sure with the resources of Uber they can come up with something better: - Driver 'clocks in' when they are in the app and ready to receive rides. - They get paid as normal, however there is a guaranteed minimum which means that they will get paid the minimum wage. - Driver can decline rides, but there is a % threshold at wh…

> but Uber is a 76 billion dollar company, I'm sure they can come up with something better and a way of operating within labour laws. That's a good point. If those 10x engineers can't figure out a way to make it legal and ethical, maybe it's not good.

I think part of the problem is the market, for some markets. The new law would not affect NYC or dense urban areas because there is lots of order liquidity there. But what about rural Pennsylvania? (Ask me how I know? Hint: management consulting air dropped to remote client location)

When i'm in rural areas, there are often no taxis and one will show up an hour after you call, maybe. Without order liquidity, it is infeasible to maintain supply. Which company (or person) would stand ready to ride just in case an order came thru once every 4 or 5 hours?

The current market response to this is simply not supporting the market. The alternative is Uber where presumably the person is doing their yard work and jumps and does a ride if one happens to pop up. I cannot imagine Uber will sponsor idle wages in rural regions where you get an order or two a day.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#409

Post by axkdev »

bserge wrote: post #158
axkdev wrote: post #75

I hope über goes bankrupt and we forget about all of this insanity. In Germany where I live the taxi service is amassing, at least in my city can't say for whole country. They are quick clean the drivers are professionals and not some randos who will break rules to get there faster or drive so insanely that you want to puke. They know the city by heart and don't use navigators. Due to being professionals they are com…

> They know the city by heart and don't use navigators Questionable pro, but OK

They don't waste valuable time asking how do you spell the street and so on. Also it indicates that they are working in the area for a long time, so to me it adds credibility. With uber drivers it's always a gamble. Most people are nice, but that <1% of psychopaths can really ruin your day.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#410

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

maccolgan wrote: post #333
Traster wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what is likely to happen to Uber almost everywhere eventually. Courts will slowly re-impose the workers rights that Uber set out to avoid, the cost of an uber ride will go up, which will shift riders back to more traditional transport - busses, trains, bicycles and cars. Leaving a much smaller, much less powerful Uber. Without the scale and the price making power, Uber will see its value massively massively d…

And in the background, consumers get fucked.

Your convenience does not matter if employees are being exploited.
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