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Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

postgresql.org

21–30 of 127 posts

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#21

There’s literally no way any of the filed trademarks will be granted if the core team files opposition. Don’t waste your time “negotiating”.

Also, the core team should use their Canadian (or whichever country they have earliest file date in) to file for a WIPO/Madrid mark.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cumbersone in what way?

Perhaps I am alone is this (based on the votes) but when I go to https://www.postgresql.org/list/ it requires a great deal of clicking to drill down and lets say I eventually end up some where like https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-general/2021-09/ I am greeted with a lot "Re:" "No subject" etc. Perhaps what is comes down to is I am trying to interact with a mailing list using a browser which is perhaps unfair. I…

So the downvotes on your perfectly legitimate comment are absurd, but here we are.

To get technical, the problem that you're having isn't that interacting with mailing lists is cumbersome, but rather, interacting with mailing list archives is cumbersome. You're not wrong. Web interfaces for mailing list archives haven't really changed in yonks, and there's little incentive to do so. The only people who use the archives are the people who explicitly do not interact with the list itself.

The people who actually use mailing lists, are members of the list itself, and receive the messages in their mailbox. From that point onwards, their interaction with the mailing list is only as cumbersome as their Mail User Agent (email client, MUA). Using a decent MUA that supports threading is step one to having an enjoyable experience with a mailing list.

Unfortunately, in 2021, we've regressed from a world where we have depth of options where it comes to MUAs, to where we are now where the vast majority use webmail solutions exclusively. Webmail has definitely improved since the 90s and 00s, but unfortunately not every feature has come along for the ride, making that also tricky.

As far as the barriers to entry go, thats subjective. Subscribing to a subreddit requires creating a reddit account. Subscribing to most forums requires signing up with an email address, password, possibly username as well, along with other biographical details (optional in some cases), and validating your email is real. Subscribing to a mailing list requires signing up with an email address and validating your email is real.

Anything you're not used to using, is always going to feel more cumbersome. If "happy mailman day" doesn't mean anything to you, you probably haven't had much experience with mailing lists (or have, but much more recent).

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#24
post #8

In the spirit of the open source movement, the PostgreSQL community has always tried to operate transparently and fairly, and provide resources for people to adopt, use, and promote PostgreSQL. We continuously look to improve and are very much open to feedback (look no further than the discussions on our mailing lists)! Perhaps I am just a little too young but I do find the use of mailing lists in some of the older o…

Linux has had the LKML for almost three decades. It still works well for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_mailing_list

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think discord or slack is a great alternative as it is very ephemeral (and not really open source / decentralized) but I do think interacting with a mailing list is worse than a threaded forum type layout.

Email has had threading since before I was born.

Email has never had explicit threading - email has a bunch of usage habits that many clients interpret as attempted threading (which often results in threads of steam receipts in my gmail webview FYI).

There are a number of clients that are particularly good at respecting the specific approaches to threading used by mailing lists and that come with a plethora of powerful keyboard interactions to make browsing a whole bunch of emails trivial. But newer devs may be quite unfamiliar with those options and I don't think it's particularly easy information to learn... especially if your webmail has "just worked" for most other uses.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#26
Why does this happen? What's the point of trademarks existing at all, if you have to fight for it every time someone makes a claim to it? What's the point of registration if the same trademark will be awarded again without regard to existing trademarks in the same region?

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I am alone is this (based on the votes) but when I go to https://www.postgresql.org/list/ it requires a great deal of clicking to drill down and lets say I eventually end up some where like https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-general/2021-09/ I am greeted with a lot "Re:" "No subject" etc. Perhaps what is comes down to is I am trying to interact with a mailing list using a browser which is perhaps unfair. I…

So the downvotes on your perfectly legitimate comment are absurd, but here we are. To get technical, the problem that you're having isn't that interacting with mailing lists is cumbersome, but rather, interacting with mailing list archives is cumbersome. You're not wrong. Web interfaces for mailing list archives haven't really changed in yonks, and there's little incentive to do so. The only people who use the archiv…

That feels like a totally fair assessment.

I guess I would say that mailing lists favor producers over consumers.

Often when I am looking at a mailing list it is for the same reason I am poking through a GitHub issue. I am looking for someone who had a similar problem and maybe someone else had a solution.

Thus I think I am largely a consumer.

As a consumer I dont often think, let me go to my email client. My email client is where I get bills and notifications and some personal correspondence. It is definitely not where I go when I am looking to consume.

I would disagree that it is as easy as just signing up with an email. I have to set up filters etc and shift to an entirely different client after I sign up the entering an email address is just the first step.

I feel that for people who are core developers email lists are probably great. They are essentially looking to communicate with only a few people and the topics are quite specific. Where they fail me is they make it harder to convert a consumer to a producer. For all the problems I have with OSS's seemingly centralization on Github I am far more likely to drop into some random Github issue than I am to join a mailing list.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#28
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that (from the article) the offender in this case isn't some gigantic organization like Amazon — it's basically one guy, and one who considers himself to be a member in good standing whose part of the Postgres community. I'd hazard a guess that by taking this public, the Postgres team is trying to create some pressure on him through public opinion in the hope that he sees reason and it doesn't have…

Yeah, I'm guessing this is just an ego thing that got out of hand. Hopefully he comes around before both sides waste a lot of resources in court.

Getting some arduino.cc vs arduino.org vibes here.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the downvotes on your perfectly legitimate comment are absurd, but here we are. To get technical, the problem that you're having isn't that interacting with mailing lists is cumbersome, but rather, interacting with mailing list archives is cumbersome. You're not wrong. Web interfaces for mailing list archives haven't really changed in yonks, and there's little incentive to do so. The only people who use the archiv…

That feels like a totally fair assessment. I guess I would say that mailing lists favor producers over consumers. Often when I am looking at a mailing list it is for the same reason I am poking through a GitHub issue. I am looking for someone who had a similar problem and maybe someone else had a solution. Thus I think I am largely a consumer. As a consumer I dont often think, let me go to my email client. My email c…

How about an interface like GitHub issues? Do you feel that strikes a balance between consumers/producers for this kind of discussions?

Edit: I think you updated your comment while I replied (or maybe I just hit reply without seing the last part of your comment). I see now that you've mentioned GitHub issues, which is a kind of interface that I've seen get a better balance, but I'm not sure how it stands from a producor pov against a mailing list (decentralization is obviously lacking on them).

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#30
post #8

In the spirit of the open source movement, the PostgreSQL community has always tried to operate transparently and fairly, and provide resources for people to adopt, use, and promote PostgreSQL. We continuously look to improve and are very much open to feedback (look no further than the discussions on our mailing lists)! Perhaps I am just a little too young but I do find the use of mailing lists in some of the older o…

Linux has had the LKML for almost three decades. It still works well for them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_mailing_list

Does it? I find it really cumbersome. We were just interacting with it the other day and found it annoyingly baroque. There's a lot of assumed knowledge and I've read a fair bit of documentation and have been following Kernel development since before my career.

It "works" for the people who it works for and that's it.

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