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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#441

Post by ghoward »

nobodyandproud wrote: post #427
ghoward wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying it could be a responsible decision for the person making the decision. The false premise that we should care about other people's health is annoying at this point. The vaccinated can still spread the virus, so we should make the decision to get vaccinated for ourselves, and those who don't make the orthodox decision should not be vilified.

What makes it a false premise? People are quite tired of the unvaccinated who choose to opt-out without medical or traditional religious reasons; it’s worn thin because the decision affects people who want to get vaccinated but can’t. You don’t have worry about government mandates, though that’s inevitable. The unvaccinated won’t be able to find a job; or even conduct business the way things are going. And soon, you…

It's a false premise because those who would like to get the vaccine, but can't, can voluntarily do things to make sure they don't contract COVID. Instead, they clamor for governments to force people to do something so that they are not inconvenienced.

A lot of the consequences of those choices are artificial. They are authoritarian measures designed to elicit compliance, not natural consequences.

Also, the very fact that there are people who can't get vaccinated means that the vaccines are dangerous. You have decided that the folks who decide to skip the vaccines are doing so because they don't get it, when in reality, a lot of them probably understand the dangers. While the people who can't get vaccinated would be merely inconvenienced by changing their lives to avoid the virus, those who take the shot could have life-changing consequences.

Also, you claim that people like me will not be able to get a job. I laugh at this. There is already a hospital that won't deliver babies because they can't get enough staff after so many quit over a vaccine mandate. If you and the authoritarians push us out of the economy, be prepared for the consequences. The natural consequences.

We'll see how long the mandates last.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#442

Post by nobodyandproud »

ghoward wrote: post #441
nobodyandproud wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it a false premise? People are quite tired of the unvaccinated who choose to opt-out without medical or traditional religious reasons; it’s worn thin because the decision affects people who want to get vaccinated but can’t. You don’t have worry about government mandates, though that’s inevitable. The unvaccinated won’t be able to find a job; or even conduct business the way things are going. And soon, you…

It's a false premise because those who would like to get the vaccine, but can't, can voluntarily do things to make sure they don't contract COVID. Instead, they clamor for governments to force people to do something so that they are not inconvenienced. A lot of the consequences of those choices are artificial. They are authoritarian measures designed to elicit compliance, not natural consequences. Also, the very fact…

> It's a false premise because those who would like to get the vaccine, but can't, can voluntarily do things to make sure they don't contract COVID. Instead, they clamor for governments to force people to do something so that they are not inconvenienced. > A lot of the consequences of those choices are artificial. They are authoritarian measures designed to elicit compliance, not natural consequences.

Kids 11 and under can’t get vaccinated. Not because its dangerous but because our agency is being extremely thorough.

These same kids cannot do anything to mitigate, when they are also in class throughout the day.

Oh and masking? That largely prevents spread. by the infected; not so great at preventing someone masked from getting infected. Also, even this level of temporary mandate is being fought.

Meanwhile and this point hundreds of millions (billions) of shots; and the risk factors are well-known. Yet this information doesn’t seem matter.

> Also, you claim that people like me will not be able to get a job. I laugh at this. There is already a hospital that won't deliver babies because they can't get enough staff after so many quit over a vaccine mandate.

Good luck working when insurance companies forces high premiums.

> If you and the authoritarians push us out of the economy, be prepared for the consequences. The natural consequences.

This is a veiled threat. I’m not an authoritarian at all, but in any society it’s give and take.

Some want all of the benefits of society without doing their part, and that will have natural consequences as well.

That isn’t a threat. That’s just the market correcting itself because it can’t support the level of welfare you’re advocating.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#443

Post by nilkn »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #431
nilkn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this sub may be a bit distasteful for some, I recommend spending some time reading through the countless examples documented there of folks who refused the vaccine based on this kind of thinking and then ended up dying often very unpleasant deaths while unable to breathe for days or weeks: https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ This sub has seen extremely rapid growth, which is perhaps one of the most tragic…

Selection bias. There are many people dying despite being vaccinated with 2 or 3 doses, but they just don't make fun stories for liberals.

Presumably, if your claim were accurate and such deaths were occurring on anywhere near the same scale, then the internet would be flooded with those stories. But it's not, and there are no statistics to back up the scale you're implying.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#444

Post by ryandrake »

tinus_hn wrote: post #333
ryandrake wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is suppressing anything. The vaccines help but not 100%. You're rounding everything down to "doesn't work". Would you say condoms "don't work" because they are not 100%?

I would if they worked 42%. https://www.foxnews.com/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-42-in... Which is just a random result for searching. I’m sure there other numbers to be found, but they are nowhere near 100%.

That's effectiveness against infection. Go look up effectiveness numbers against symptomatic infection, hospitalization, and death.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#445

Post by RattleyCooper »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #207
tchalla wrote: post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

> We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc. This is a classic demonstration that "slippery slope" isn't a fallacy. First you need a driving license. Privacy conscious people objected. You don't need to show your driving license to drive, was the response, only if you break traffic laws or get in…

>This is a classic demonstration that "slippery slope" isn't a fallacy.

What's ironic is that people who usually call out slippery slope as being a fallacy are participating in the fallacy of cherry-picking. Because slippery slope is only a fallacy when there is no prior evidence of the proposed events occurring, and 99.9% of the time people say "that's a slippery slope", it's in response to events that are similar to past events.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#446

Post by javagram »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #402
javagram wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overweight and elderly is not something you can fix in an hour with a free vaccine shot. Don’t you see the obvious difference?

So? It's for their own good. Don't you care about what is best for the undesirables?

It’s impossible to fix being elderly by telling them to take a medication or some other means. It just doesn’t scientifically exist. By suggesting we should require the elderly to become non-elderly before mixing with society, you’d be asking the impossible. That makes no sense and no one rational would consider it to be “for their own good”.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#447

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS »

daveoc64 wrote: post #436
jokethrowaway wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, I think it's completely insane not to have to provide an ID to vote. Of course it's a system that's ripe for fraud if you can't even identify and record voters reliably. I don't know how you can think this will introduce any more friction for low income people. You need an ID to drive. You may introduce friction for illegal immigrants and mentally handicapped homeless. Saying this will affect low incom…

>I don't know how you can think this will introduce any more friction for low income people. You need an ID to drive. You may introduce friction for illegal immigrants and mentally handicapped homeless. In the UK (where a requirement for voter ID has been proposed), research shows that up to 3.5 million citizens (7.5% of the electorate do not have a suitable photo ID)[0]. That's a lot of people to disenfranchise. The…

> 3.5 million citizens (7.5% of the electorate.....That's a lot of people to disenfranchise.

[US Federal Government has entered the chat]

That's nothing, we disenfranchised 80 million with our vaccine mandate.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#448

Post by sudosysgen »

chana_masala wrote: post #254
htkgigktmrnnr wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The graph here you are looking for is the one that shows the percentage of staffed beds and icu beds occupied. Notice that it is entirely flat. So why did hospitals declare that they have no ICU beds available and that they are sending patients out of state? > At least 53 Texas hospitals have no available ICU capacity, according to numbers reported to the federal government during the week ending Aug. 5. In Austin,…

It could be related to staff shortages. Number of beds is not a literal figure, it also accounts for the number of staff that can treat patients in the bed. If you're short staffed you're short bed'd too

That still contraticts the sentence he quoted.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#449

Post by Nexxxeh »

rdtwo wrote: post #392
Nexxxeh wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then your organs just go to waste, rather than be used to save lives.

Yeah it’s true but I’d rather not enrich a bunch of middle men. I think the system is unfair and I don’t want to contribute

You feel sufficiently strongly to condemn those in need of organ transplant, potentially, to death?

If you see them as victims of the system, doesn't refusing to donate your organs literally making things worse for them?

It feels like you're saying "I could save your life, but I won't because the system isn't the way I want it."

Is that a reasonable summary, or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#450

Post by reillyse »

reillyse wrote: post #22

Irony is you have to show your papers (id showing proof of age) to get into nightclubs anyway.

So for the two sibling comments. This article is clearly about nightclubs and events. "Plans to introduce vaccine passports for access into nightclubs and large events in England will not go ahead, the health secretary has said."

"Under the scheme, people would have been required to show proof - whether of double vaccination, a negative Covid test or finishing self-isolating after a positive PCR test - in order to gain entry to clubs and other crowded events."

"The Night Time Industries Association had said the plans could have crippled the industry and led to nightclubs facing discrimination cases."

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