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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#221
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be a freelancer just fine, nothing stops you from doing that. But not within the Uber framework because you aren' a freelancer within that framework. So this is pretty specific: the Uber framework does not check enough of the boxes that would allow their pseudo employees to claim they are freelancers, which effectively makes it just another tax dodge, which it always was.

Then fix the tax loopholes by making it about sales or revenue rather than employment.

No. The 'tax loopholes' are simply shifting the responsibility of paying those taxes from the employer to the employee, which when the company is doing well and the relationship is otherwise balanced is a net neutral. But once the larger picture is taken into account things like health benefits, continuing to be paid when temporarily unemployed (which for a gig worker is several times per hour) and so on become externalized to society when really they should be the problem of the employer.

The current situation allows Uber to play its employees against the state (as they're very transparently trying to do in the referenced article with their remark that their employees (because that what they are) would prefer to be self employed, which is nonsense only when compared with the situation where Uber would not employ them at all. The vast bulk of the employees really would like steady employment.

So the tax dodge should stop but not through fixing the tax loophoes, but simply by recognizing that which is already the fact on the ground: that these people are employees in all but name. Note that this is Europe where - to many American companies' surprise and detriment - it is not only the letter of the law that matters but also the intent of the law, in this case the intent of labor law here is to ensure our social contract continues to function. Hacking your way around that like you can do in the United States - where it is the letter of the law that matters far more than the intent - is going to be met with significant pushback from the courts.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#222
post #99

Wait, I live in the Netherlands and I wasn't even aware that Uber was around. Didn't they get banned years ago, with only Uber Black being allowed?

Whenever I order an Uber in NL, I seem to get a car that is a licensed taxi.

Usually they have a taxi sign on top of the car, and always have blue license plates (which you can only get if you are a taxi).

So, I think that the workaround must have been that they actually employ licensed taxi drivers. This is, however, only speculation.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be a freelancer just fine, nothing stops you from doing that. But not within the Uber framework because you aren' a freelancer within that framework. So this is pretty specific: the Uber framework does not check enough of the boxes that would allow their pseudo employees to claim they are freelancers, which effectively makes it just another tax dodge, which it always was.

Taxi businesses in the U.S. played this cat-and-mouse game for a long time, and generally 'won' the right to offload liabilities to drivers without much pay. Why anyone thought or thinks Uber is 'different' is hard to understand.

It's the US that is different not Uber, they are treated just like every other company here would be treated.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#224
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know much about Italy but should be pretty similar to Germany where we generally say the employer pays double. Example person unmarried, no kids, 35. - net: 2000€ - gross: 3100€ - company cost: 3850€

In Poland, it's like this, for an country-wide-average salary: - net: 4300 PLN - gross: 6000 PLN - total employer cost: 7200 PLN So, the total tax burden is around 40%. What gets neglected in these discussions though is that everything employer pays is counted as a cost he can write off from revenue to decrease his profit taxes (assuming company makes profit!). So, the effective cost on employer side is lower than 72…

Salaries are always considered the cost of doing business, so I'm not sure what your point is here. What is important is that many people can't wrap their head around the fact that this additonal 1200 PLN which is labeled as "employer contribution" to social security is in fact part of their salary. So people do not realize that their tax burden is 40%, they think it is just 29%.

Also, to make it worse, once you get your 4300 PLN salary into your bank account, you pay on average 16% VAT on every purchase (8-23%, depending on the item bought). So in reality your net salary is 4300*0.84 = 3612, making total tax burden almost 50%.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#225
Legitimate question, will Uber shut down it's Dutch operations now? Will this cost them more money than it's worth to operate there, and would they shutdown to send a message to other nations about there intent should similar rulings be made?

Uber's margins have always been super thin, I would imagine this makes them squarely unprofitable in the Dutch market.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#226
Unfortunate consequence of a legacy legal system. Uber drivers are clearly neither quite like employees nor are they entrepreneurs, and the law should come up with a fitting category that ensures they are protected from exploitation but continue to enjoy some of the freedoms associated with the gig economy.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of freelance software engineers in the Netherlands and quite a few of them do. BV starts to make sense from about 100K turnover because you gain some tax advantages, it also makes working for larger entities easier and it allows you to charge a higher rate and to be in an easier position to work with subcontractors. It all depends on what you want, there are plenty of ZZP'ers in software development on t…

In Switzerland and Germany there's a difference between an AG (Aktiengesellschaft) and a GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung). Both have more or less the same tax and structural advantage (like limited liability, a far easier time to get acknowledged by social security, etc) The main difference is capital requirements and more formality for the AG. For example: The law requires yearly external audits for an A…

In the Netherlands you have essentially:

Private limited company (BV or besloten vennootschap)

or

Public limited company (NV or naamloze vennootschap)

The BV is like a Ltd in the Anglo Saxon world and the NV is your company with equity defined by shares/stocks.

you can also have:

Cooperative (coöperatie)

Association (vereniging)

Foundation (stichting)

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#229
post #99

Wait, I live in the Netherlands and I wasn't even aware that Uber was around. Didn't they get banned years ago, with only Uber Black being allowed?

There is Uber around, 100%. I use it from time to time.

I think it's always a regular taxi that shows up, though.

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