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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#151

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

'Employment' is abused by the government to provide social benefits that it doesn't want to pay for. A job should trade work for cash and no more.

To be honest if there was government provided universal healthcare, basic income, and housing guarantees I would totally agree. It would create a ton more mobility, and take a lot of power away from employers.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#152
post #101
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard anyone here in the EU argue this. Including people over a certain salary. It is, after all, in the interest of the wealthy too that everyone is OK and doesn't need to live in the streets and cause crime, necessitating guns and whatnot as they do in the US. Paying your tax and premiums is way cheaper and much more pleasant.

Yes this.. We don't want ultracapitalism here. I make more than average but I'm totally fine with paying taxes. The safety net is there for me too. Capitalism is good but there must be a balance. To an American it may sound communist (though technically it's more socialist) but it's our country, we can choose the system we want. And we've done an OK job IMO (In fact I wish things were a bit more socialist - this abus…

Decades of cold war propaganda have confused the issue in the US. When you say socialism, they think you are talking about USSR-style authoritarian communism. It's asurd and exasperating, but it won't go away until the boomer generati on loses political influence. It's also highly partisan, and in today's atmosphere of cultural warfare, that makes it a non-starter. Half the country won’t wear a mask because Donald Trump wanted to deny the pandemic during his reelection campaign. What hope is there for something as radical as changing the entire foundation of society?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#153
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a consultant in The Netherlands and for this purpose I control my own BV. Similar to an LLC in the USA. But I don't drive a taxi, I do computer stuff. If you want to legitimately be independent in NL you can. I have a few friends in the construction industy(plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc) who are ZZP'ers. There are a few options open to people who legitimately want to be independent in their work, and th…

Just to point out, that a BV and an LLC are very different, in that anyone can have an LLC in the USA but the tax reporting requirements and overhead for a BV in NL are quite high and don't make much sense to anyone with an income less then.. well, quite high, by most standards. I know a lot of freelance software engineers in the netherlands, but none have a BV.

Correct. With a BV in the Netherlands, you get immediately the fiscal Calvinism of the Dutch tax office at play. Despite the fact that:

- You work for yourself so you get 100% of the risk

- You have no benefits

- If you are sick you get no pay, unless you make a very expensive work sickness/income insurance

the Dutch tax office, judges that they do not want you to be in a "too advantageous fiscal position" ...( Not making this up...these are their own words) so, forces you to pay yourself a minimum yearly salary that is updated every year so they can tax you. It is currently at 47,000 EUR per year I believe...and is independently of you making money or not...

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#154
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Employment' is abused by the government to provide social benefits that it doesn't want to pay for. A job should trade work for cash and no more.

To be honest if there was government provided universal healthcare, basic income, and housing guarantees I would totally agree. It would create a ton more mobility, and take a lot of power away from employers.

That's what I'm talking about though. The government thinks people should have these things but doesn't have the political will to implement them so they demand that employers provide them rather than just paying cash. This is the reason that the category 'employee' exists in the first place.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#155
post #104
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I hire a contractor to renovate my home to my exact specifications, by your logic they are my employee because they couldn't choose the "route" or "destination?"

They do get to set the prices (the part gp forgot to mention).

Employees also set their own prices? "For me to accept a job offer, you have to pay me at least $150k" - that's setting your own price.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#156
Obligatory reminder that this isn't saying rideshare drivers must be employees. It is saying the specifics of uber, how it controls its drivers, and how it runs its business is an employment model per their laws. You could almost certainly build a new rideshare business that is not employment based.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#157
post #6

Bit out of context but I just came back from US (living in Netherlands). Holy flipping hell that place is full of cars. Literally everywhere. I mean I understand using a car upstate New York where things are further apart and everyone has a huge isolated villa. But do you really need 4 lane roads in freaking manhattan? Seems like regulating "car stuff" in general is always a good thing if you ask me.

I love the US car culture. I’ve lived in places where car ownership is more restricted and I feel well…poor.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#158
post #75

I hope über goes bankrupt and we forget about all of this insanity. In Germany where I live the taxi service is amassing, at least in my city can't say for whole country. They are quick clean the drivers are professionals and not some randos who will break rules to get there faster or drive so insanely that you want to puke. They know the city by heart and don't use navigators. Due to being professionals they are com…

> They know the city by heart and don't use navigators

Questionable pro, but OK

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#159

We really need to review "employment" as a legal concept. Most of these systems were set up post ww2. They worked ok when everyone was working full time as employees of single large companies, in factories where their time was directed. It no longer works in on demand economies, with variable hours and self employment and people working multiple jobs.

> It no longer works in on demand economies, with variable hours and self employment and people working multiple jobs. Why? There are people who work variable hours, self employment and working multiple jobs. They're called freelancers. You can freelance in most countries, and it's not a problem. What is a problem is Uber and gig economy companies saying that the people that work for them are "actually freelancers" a…

There are 1000s of small ways it doesnt work:

* In the uk, you and your employer pay national insurance if you earn over a given limit. Thats fine for an uber driver who becomes an employee instead of self employed.

* but your employer only pays if you earn over X. So employers have a big incentive to stop you earning over thst limit. You see this in the US with workers being kept at 1h less than full time to avoid paying for health insurance. So now we're limiting the income of the people we're meant to be helping!?

* plus in the uk, your contributions only count if you do a full year. Thats fine if you're a full time employee, you work 52 weeks (and when you're on holiday you're paid and that includes NI contributions), and your wage is the same every week. But if an uber driver misses a pay period or has a slow month, he paid a lot of NI and gets no credit for it. Nor can he claim it back.

* plus now, as an employee, your expenses are not tax deductable.

Im not being anti-worker. But our current systems arent fit for purpose anymore. We need to review them. Thats benefits, workers rights and the tax code.

Why dont we just charge a percentage of earnings and then base unemployment payout on that?

Because in 1950 someone dreamt up this system and designed it so we could support men working full time in factories and to operate using just pen and paper but cause computers didnt exist. 70 years later, we have the same system with 101 bits of crap bolted on. And it isnt working.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#160
post #64
post #7

Uber says the majority of drivers don't want this, which I'd call bs on, but has anyone heard from actual drivers what they want?

It isn't (only) about what the actual drivers want. I'm sure they also want more money, but Uber isn't going to give it to them. It's also about fair competition, health and unemployment insurance, pension, etc.

What a bizarre mentality. “I don’t care if this is what you want, you cant have it”
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