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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

nltimes.nl

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#61

Post by SMAAART »

What we have here is a unique, unprecedented, real life experiment in Game Theory.

Possible outcomes:

- Uber could pull out from the Netherlands

- Drivers in the Netherlands could organize themselves, but they will need a structure similar to Uber

- Other countries will follow the Netherlands ruling

We could see the implosion of the gig economy (doubt it) or - most probably - some places like the Netherlands will be gig-economy-free zones; and we'll see the impact on their economies.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#63

Post by chaosite »

avsteele wrote: post #53
jacquesm wrote: post #27

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

Does there exist any company that allows their employees to work any number of hours they want, whenever they want?

Neither does Uber, if they don't have rides to give, they're not gonna let anyone work for them.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#64

Post by tgv »

elgfare wrote: post #7

Uber says the majority of drivers don't want this, which I'd call bs on, but has anyone heard from actual drivers what they want?

It isn't (only) about what the actual drivers want. I'm sure they also want more money, but Uber isn't going to give it to them. It's also about fair competition, health and unemployment insurance, pension, etc.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#65

Post by Doctor_Fegg »

tomp wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #27

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

Must is just as wrong as won't . The ideal solution is, drivers being given the choice. Wanna earn more (but less predictable), pay less tax, have less social security, work whenever you want to? Or do you want to earn less (but completely predictable), pay more tax, have unemployment security, work fixed hours.

And then you fall ill.

Who looks after you then? Hospitals paid for by taxation? Or are you just left on the street to die?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#66

Post by brnt »

kfk wrote: post #10
elgfare wrote: post #7

Uber says the majority of drivers don't want this, which I'd call bs on, but has anyone heard from actual drivers what they want?

I think Uber might be right here. EU labor laws protect a few but over a certain salary they are not very appealing. In Italy paying a net salary of 2,000 euros will cost the company 6000+. Things included like pension are not worth their cost, a private pension is better and cheaper, same for health services. It’s unfortunate but it’s true.

I've never heard anyone here in the EU argue this. Including people over a certain salary. It is, after all, in the interest of the wealthy too that everyone is OK and doesn't need to live in the streets and cause crime, necessitating guns and whatnot as they do in the US.

Paying your tax and premiums is way cheaper and much more pleasant.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#67

Post by adwww »

SMAAART wrote: post #61

What we have here is a unique, unprecedented, real life experiment in Game Theory. Possible outcomes: - Uber could pull out from the Netherlands - Drivers in the Netherlands could organize themselves, but they will need a structure similar to Uber - Other countries will follow the Netherlands ruling We could see the implosion of the gig economy (doubt it) or - most probably - some places like the Netherlands will be…

> Other countries will follow the Netherlands ruling

Dozens of other jurisdictions seem to have ruled similar already, but for whatever reason, with limited change yet.

I'm not sure why not. Possibly stuck in various appeals, or maybe Uber made some other small change and waited to get sued again?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#68

Post by gjulianm »

LatteLazy wrote: post #54

We really need to review "employment" as a legal concept. Most of these systems were set up post ww2. They worked ok when everyone was working full time as employees of single large companies, in factories where their time was directed. It no longer works in on demand economies, with variable hours and self employment and people working multiple jobs.

> It no longer works in on demand economies, with variable hours and self employment and people working multiple jobs.

Why? There are people who work variable hours, self employment and working multiple jobs. They're called freelancers. You can freelance in most countries, and it's not a problem. What is a problem is Uber and gig economy companies saying that the people that work for them are "actually freelancers" as an excuse to offload costs onto the workers, who don't get any of the advantages of being a freelance (they always work under the conditions for these companies, with no power of negotiation.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#69

Post by hungryforcodes »

jacquesm wrote: post #27

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

But what if I legitimacy want to be a freelancer? Lifestyle reasons, freedom, whatever. I should have a choice.
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