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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#21
post #13

Why doesn't Uber employ them and guarantee minimum wage, anything extra is a bonus? Is it just the extra employee costs on the company side?

If you do such a thing, then you need to start worrying about local labor laws, vacation time, healthcare in the US, sick leave, etc. The gig economy works by circumventing these things.

[deleted]

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#23
post #12
post #6

Bit out of context but I just came back from US (living in Netherlands). Holy flipping hell that place is full of cars. Literally everywhere. I mean I understand using a car upstate New York where things are further apart and everyone has a huge isolated villa. But do you really need 4 lane roads in freaking manhattan? Seems like regulating "car stuff" in general is always a good thing if you ask me.

There is a great youtube channel called "Not just bikes" which talks about urban planning in the netherlands and how it results in much more livable cities than the US.

This map of cyle paths in Europe tells you everything:

https://imgur.com/Fkye6Nt

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#24
post #12
post #6

Bit out of context but I just came back from US (living in Netherlands). Holy flipping hell that place is full of cars. Literally everywhere. I mean I understand using a car upstate New York where things are further apart and everyone has a huge isolated villa. But do you really need 4 lane roads in freaking manhattan? Seems like regulating "car stuff" in general is always a good thing if you ask me.

There is a great youtube channel called "Not just bikes" which talks about urban planning in the netherlands and how it results in much more livable cities than the US.

Seconded, amazing channel that describes why American cities are a disaster.

I've lived in a walkable area and QoL goes up immensely. No amount of money or luxury in an American suburb will compare. There is nothing like the sheer convenience of being able to get your groceries in a 3 minute walk.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#25
post #10
post #7

Uber says the majority of drivers don't want this, which I'd call bs on, but has anyone heard from actual drivers what they want?

I think Uber might be right here. EU labor laws protect a few but over a certain salary they are not very appealing. In Italy paying a net salary of 2,000 euros will cost the company 6000+. Things included like pension are not worth their cost, a private pension is better and cheaper, same for health services. It’s unfortunate but it’s true.

> In Italy paying a net salary of 2,000 euros will cost the company 6000+.

I dispute this number. Do you have a source for this?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#26
post #11
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Uber might be right here. EU labor laws protect a few but over a certain salary they are not very appealing. In Italy paying a net salary of 2,000 euros will cost the company 6000+. Things included like pension are not worth their cost, a private pension is better and cheaper, same for health services. It’s unfortunate but it’s true.

For the company it costs more money, but for the employee, you are way better being employed than contractor. This is not a surprise, this extra money is effectively bringing the employee health insurance, pension, invalidity pension, unemployment benefit, maximum number of hours to work per week, paid vacations, etc. If you need to pay it out of your pocket, it turns out to be the same. In the "old" Europe, the net…

> this extra money is effectively bringing the employee health insurance, pension, invalidity pension, unemployment benefit,

Yes, but about half that money gets “lost on the way”. You don’t contribute for yourself. You contribute for “others”, but “others” is defined with very specific conditions so you can never be part of them. It’s a way to take money from the people who sweat and eventually die at their workplace and give it to people who are preferred by (place the government of the moment here).

Redistribution in Europe is a racial program.

PS: I had a friend who went paraplegic and he was surprised that, after a life of donating 63% of his revenue to social contributions, his disability indemnity was…

923€.

Per month.

Including the part with which he’s supposed to use to buy a disabled-compatible kitchen and the part that he’s supposed to use to hire domestic help. 923€!!! He’s paid the state >2500€ per month for 15 years!!! He’s basically in poverty now.

The rest of the social contributions goes to muslims.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#27
Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#28
post #9
post #5

“Drivers don’t want to give up their freedom to choose if, when and where to work.” Drivers might have the freedom to turn off their phones and choose not to work, but they don't have the freedom to choose which routes/destinations. Seems to me that their argument is one-sided and deceptive.

If you don't have that freedom, you're an employee, which is what this conflict is about. Because if they're an employee, their employer must pay social insurance. The self-employed are exempted from this insurance (although highly encouraged, because, not surprisingly, the vast majority of self-employed people don't become lucky billionaires). Uber wanted to have it both ways, and, not surprisingly, it can't. Self-e…

but from what i recall, an uber driver do have the choice to accept or reject a ride.

There's a penalty for rejecting too many rides - but i think that's a fair outcome.

Ideally, uber also allows a driver to set the price, and allow a customer to see price comparisons between all offered drivers (and wait times etc), to truly make it a competitive market place.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#29
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do such a thing, then you need to start worrying about local labor laws, vacation time, healthcare in the US, sick leave, etc. The gig economy works by circumventing these things.

[deleted]

They aren't hard but they do have costs. Once you start paying for them then your offering doesn't look much different to traditional taxi companies.
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