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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#291

Post by sammalloy »

zarzavat wrote: post #286
Misdicorl wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The future doesn't have less social media, it has more. We won't look back with contempt, but amusement much as we do today at early cgi and tabloid efforts. I don't love the idea with the current iteration, but every mass media invention has the exact same trope play out as we're seeing with social media. 1) first adopters and skeptics 2) major use 3) exploitation of those users 4) combo of regulation an…

It depends what you mean by "social media". Facebook already feels very dated and Instagram is getting that way. People will get bored of it all, I know I have. Right now my platform of choice is Discord. It might technically be social media but it's way less toxic as it encourages people to build relationships rather than shouting at each other.

I use Facebook for hyper-local news and groups only. I have no other use for it. I use Insta to follow subcultural interests, such as vegan cooks, shapers, small niche bands I like, car modders, and unusual cat reels.

I had something interesting happen to me last week on Insta. It was very late at night and I was about to fall asleep, when a live feed alert informed me that a band I liked was talking live directly with just about anyone about their new album release.

It was amazing to see them that open and welcoming to their fans and to be able to instantly download their album after being told it had just dropped. That kind of instant communication is wild.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#292

Post by ak217 »

nebula8804 wrote: post #159
lazide wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than just dangerous, it was a known death sentence to be working in lead mining/smelting and a common poison [ https://archive.epa.gov/epa/aboutepa/lead-poisoning-historic... ]. Like you note, it was also extremely convenient and relatively cheap. Pretty sure at least some of the chemicals we’re using now in soaps or for food processing will have something nasty associated with them once time has passed.

It will probably be Triclosan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan#Health_concerns

It's already been phased out

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#293

Post by Baeocystin »

ashtonkem wrote: post #284
jgtrosh wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, it is also considered that he has benefited more than harmed; simply by helping provide countless people with refrigeration.

That only works if we presume that the only way we could have discovered refrigeration was via CFCs, which seems improbable to me. My chest freezer uses propane as a refrigerant; why couldn’t we have just jumped straight to that?

We already had ammonia as a working fluid, and it's great at the job. Also a very toxic substance you do not want any significant quantity of in your home. The great strength of CFCs is how non-toxic/non-flammable they are compared to the alternatives.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#294

Post by jws »

ashtonkem wrote: post #284
jgtrosh wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, it is also considered that he has benefited more than harmed; simply by helping provide countless people with refrigeration.

That only works if we presume that the only way we could have discovered refrigeration was via CFCs, which seems improbable to me. My chest freezer uses propane as a refrigerant; why couldn’t we have just jumped straight to that?

Propane can be used as a refrigerant. It is cheap and performs reasonably well. The obvious downside is flammability. In the US the total charge for a propane fridge or AC is limited to 150 grams of propane. That is a rather small window unit.

I think propane had to wait for precision manufacturing to be commoditized before it could be tolerated in living spaces. Leaking propane around switching electrical equipment can end badly.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#295

Post by wpietri »

SilverRed wrote: post #260
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. There's literally no-one on earth saying "I should be free to do as I want regardless of harm to others".

They don't say it out loud. But they act based on that principal.

Exactly. I once saw a quote from an accountant: "Don't tell me your priorities. Show me your budget and I'll tell you your priorities."

Even utter sociopaths know not to talk like they don't give a shit about anybody else. The social consequences for that are too high. So if we want to understand what people care about, we can't just go with their claims about their motivations. We have to look at where they put in the work.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#296

Post by jws »

Baeocystin wrote: post #293
ashtonkem wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works if we presume that the only way we could have discovered refrigeration was via CFCs, which seems improbable to me. My chest freezer uses propane as a refrigerant; why couldn’t we have just jumped straight to that?

We already had ammonia as a working fluid, and it's great at the job. Also a very toxic substance you do not want any significant quantity of in your home. The great strength of CFCs is how non-toxic/non-flammable they are compared to the alternatives.

Speak for yourself! Back in the day my dorm fridge was an ammonia absorption unit. No compressor. Absolutely silent. Loved it. Perfect when living in 80 square feet.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#297

Post by wpietri »

ByteJockey wrote: post #123
wpietri wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. It of course sounds insane when you say it baldly like this, which is why it rarely gets stated openly. But a lot of traditional societal structu…

There's also an entire spectrum of what constitutes "enough" harm to others to be limited (in addition to how direct the harm is).

Sure, but that comes later. All serious discussions about rights involve balancing the practical consequences of different rights. But the two concepts of freedom are still quite distinct.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#298

Post by wpietri »

shkkmo wrote: post #253
bckygldstn wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any freedoms fought over in America that truly do no harm to others? Most discussions revolve around tradeoffs between harm and benefit. It seems like "as long as I don't harm others" means "I consider the small harm to others worthwhile for the benefits". And "regardless of harm to others" is using the same approach to come to a conclusion you disagree with. There's a lot of different ways to approach free…

> Are there any freedoms fought over in America that truly do no harm to others? One that comes to mind is gay marriage.

For sure. And there are plenty more. Freedom to vote, freedom of religious belief, freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of movement, freedom of thought. And then a bunch of freedom from. Freedom from slavery, from torture, from violence, from workplace exploitation, from domestic abuse.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#299

Post by Falkon1313 »

cwp wrote: post #251
version_five wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be a "don't hate the player hate the game" type situation. Influencers or aspiring influencers are doing what they do because they are working inside a construct that's set up to reward them for it. They are not blameless, but they are not conspiring to create that damage that social media had done to society, they are in s sense being put up to it by the platforms and users (who by the way I don't think sho…

I guess I put more of the blame on the influencers because they are the ones making editorial decisions. Sure the platforms are optimizing for engagement too, but it's all content-agnostic. The influencers choose their words carefully, and they choose harmful words because it makes them more money.

And the reason that it makes them more money is because that is exactly what the algorithm is designed to encourage and what it pays out the most for.

If we were still in the era where feeds were just a chronological list of posts by people you're subscribed to, that might be a little different.

But the feed is manipulated by algorithms that dump any non-toxic things away into obscurity while upranking and featuring the most controversial things in order to get more engagement. That's by design.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#300

Post by clusterfish »

artificial wrote: post #224
clusterfish wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can harm yourself with junk food and lack of exercise all you want, it doesn't affect others the same way pouring poison into our shared environment does. What you're doing is called whataboutism. Trying to muddy clear waters by bringing in muddy issues that aren't directly related, just for the sake of muddying.

All of these increase healthcare costs for everyone involved.

And you commuting increases congestion for everyone else. And you buying food makes food more expensive for everyone else. So what. You honestly can't distinguish between this and pouring lead into the atmosphere? This seems like some demagoguery fetish at best.
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