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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#381

Post by NoblePublius »

logicalmonster wrote: post #252
NoblePublius wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you distinguish between the symptoms of “long covid” from the effects of being locked inside for a year? There have been over a billion covid infections globally (assume confirmed cases are 1/5 infections, which is a low estimate according to John’s Hopkins) so if “long covid” is so real, where are all these sufferers? If 1% have long covid, there should be at least ten million sufferers.

Before Covid started, when a person had a particularly bad flu, it sometimes happened that they'd feel like crap and weak for a good long while after recovering: sometimes for weeks and months. I'm not completely certain about what "long-covid" is, but this phenomenon could be a combination of this known effect as well as the after effects of the inhuman living conditions society is forcing on people: unnatural socia…

The official symptoms list of Long Covid, according to Mayo Clinic, includes “depression” and “headache and muscle pain” and “confusion.” This is lockdown-driven depression. If the virus had lingering physical effects, there would be tens of millions of sufferers seeking treatment, and there arent.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#382

Post by gruez »

skytreader wrote: post #342
gruez wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is heart disease exponentially contagious with the potential to strain medical resources in a matter of days? How is this relevant when vaccinated people are still contagious? >Again, these aren't interventions against social freedoms, rather an intervention to prevent a public service from being DDoSed, so to speak. Just like banning encryption isn't against social freedoms, but rather an intervention to prevent ba…

>> Is heart disease exponentially contagious with the potential to strain medical resources in a matter of days? > How is this relevant when vaccinated people are still contagious? Because while still contagious, they are not exponentially contagious. It's not like I left out that important qualifier in the statement you are replying to. Vaccinated people can spread in case of a breakthrough infection and infections…

>Because while still contagious, they are not exponentially contagious. It's not like I left out that important qualifier in the statement you are replying to.

1. source?

2. It really wasn't obvious because you failed to link "vaccinated" with "not exponentially contagious".

>What does encryption have anything to do with vaccination and vaccination passports?

In the previous comment you basically made the argument that the measures are justified because they're not "interventions against social freedoms, rather an intervention to prevent a public service from being DDoSed". I just took that argument to its logical conclusion. Law enforcement resources are stretched pretty thin, right? Why not give them a helping hand as well by allowing them to eavesdrop on everyone's communications? After all, it's not an intervention to decrease public privacy, it's an intervention to prevent law enforcement resources from being DDoSed.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#383

Post by pasabagi »

mcny wrote: post #106
scrollaway wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blood donors are going to be underrepresentative of people with a fear of needles, people who don't trust the medical system, and be overrepresentative of selfless people. I suspect an extremely strong correlation between giving blood and being vaccinated.

I agree that there must be a strong correlation. I had a classmate who was horrified to learn I checked the organ donor box in my driver's license. Their parents told them if you check that box, the medical staff will be more likely to let you die so they can reuse your parts. I did't have any authoritative answer but the point is there are people out there with fears that sound rational but are completely in the rea…

To be honest, even if that was official policy, I would totally tick that box. You're much better off avoiding the kind of extreme intervention to prolong life that makes scrapping your corpse for parts seem like a good idea to a doctor.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#384

Post by manquer »

ghaff wrote: post #315
jlokier wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the hotel stay situation is more like a "papers please" than a "situation where I wish to identify myself". Last time I booked a hotel via an app at the last minute for an overnight stay after going to the pub in a city away from home, the booking process didn't mention we needed to show our passports at reception. It was a new policy for that hotel. When we went to the hotel, about midnight, of course we…

It varies in the US. Some is probably locality. Some is probably chain policy. Although hotels don't in general do the copy of passport things that is common in many places. A few years back, I got in a tight situation. I had a last minute trip and, among other things, didn't grab the little travel folder which I have with backup ID, credit cards, etc. Get my license out in the back of the car for TSA. Somehow I mana…

Airbnb is usually good for those scenarios, they have your details already, and hosts will not ask any further.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#385

Post by himinlomax »

thepasswordis wrote: post #96
tchalla wrote: post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

Would you be okay with a card showing your religious affiliation before being allowed into a crowded public space? Or before being allowed to rent a truck, or buy fertilizer? Even though this would likely make the world safer: I wouldn't, and even though it wouldn't prevent me from doing anything, I would still resist it. But it would increase my safety, even though it would inconvenience some other people based on t…

> Would you be okay with a card showing your religious affiliation

If there was a good reason for it, possibly. But this is a ridiculous analogy, because there is no plausible reason for this. On the other hand, there is a good reason for strongly encouraging people to get the vaccine, as well as an excellent reason to restrain pro-virus people from spreading it more.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#386

Post by manquer »

pessimizer wrote: post #234
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In America it’s widely controversial to require ID when voting Yes, one party seems to think those of a non-white skin color are unable (through ignorance or lack of access) to obtain any form of ID so they can vote.

No, they think the poor are less likely to be able to get ID. You probably also think that, because it is obviously true. You don't need to transform it into a reverse-wokeness argument.

Not American or OP, in my country it is lot more likely the poor to have such IDs as without IDs they are not eligible for a lot of social benefits so that correlation is not necessarily obvious to many.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#387

Post by ghaff »

manquer wrote: post #384
ghaff wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It varies in the US. Some is probably locality. Some is probably chain policy. Although hotels don't in general do the copy of passport things that is common in many places. A few years back, I got in a tight situation. I had a last minute trip and, among other things, didn't grab the little travel folder which I have with backup ID, credit cards, etc. Get my license out in the back of the car for TSA. Somehow I mana…

Airbnb is usually good for those scenarios, they have your details already, and hosts will not ask any further.

It was a bit late at that point. I was near SFO in the evening and needed a room.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#388

Post by himinlomax »

hervature wrote: post #163
junon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against free and informed consent This is a problem - it is often not very informed. As for medical history, we have to show vaccination records for a number of things - school, travel sometimes, certain lines of work. Proof of vaccination against a highly mutation-prone virus in the midst of a pandemic doesn't reveal anything more about you than it would about anyone else - which is specifically allowed via HIPAA,…

What about waiting for full FDA approval? I agree that your Facebook Mom groups are full of BS but why are PhD earners more hesitant than only high school educated [1]. [1] - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v...

> What about waiting for full FDA approval?

Because it's pointless, and because the pandemic is killing people right now, not whenever some arbitrary administrative milestone is achieved. But most importantly, because people who bring that point up are typically completely ignorant of what medicine approval entails, why the process is there in the first place, and why it normally takes so long.

Just one element among several: it usually takes a long time because diseases take time to develop and we lack test subjects. Here the disease spread very rapidly, develops insanely fast, and thus judging the efficacy is nearly immediate. As for safety, vaccines almost never have long term side effects, so the risk is low to begin with, whereas the risks of the disease are huge.

In short, this is a specious argument, and a ridiculous proposition on the face of it born of ignorance and motivated by a rebeliousness as callous as it's puerile.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#389

Post by fragileone »

oakesm9 wrote: post #88
roenxi wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those are largely proving your identity in a situation where you wish to identify yourself. Proving an unrelated fact about yourself solely because the government thinks so is a different thing.

Showing your ID to buy alcohol because the govenment has decided that under 18's cannot buy it. That's widely practiced and accepted without issue

No, there's a "Think 25" rule where if the person looks above 25 you don't have to check.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#390

Post by toyg »

Nexxxeh wrote: post #366
toyg wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fears that sound rational but are completely in the realm of conspiracy theory. Sadly these fears in the UK are well-founded: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alder_Hey_organs_scandal * https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/missing... There were quite a few other similar scandals, particularly in England. The medical profession in this country, for a very long time, has had a remarkable contempt for t…

Neither of those are about organ donation. If you think that doctors aren't likely to do their level best to save your life and to act in your best interests, you surely have larger problems that you, being braindead at the time, having your organs potentially used to save the lives of others?

They are about organ misuse, which these days would likely include donations (less common at the time).

>you surely have larger problems

Maybe, but that's one more incentive, and not a small one either. Even the definition of "braindead" is somewhat controversial in many circumstances, nowadays, with doctors having the power to make some pretty radical choices - occasionally even against the explicit wishes of patient and family.

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