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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#201

Post by lovecg »

nofinator wrote: post #184
DenisM wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Sugar. - Social networks. - The coddling of the mind. I think you will find that all three have vicious cycles built into them.

Sugar is an excellent example. In fact, the sugar industry has been behind the effort to deflect blame to fat for the last 50 years. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074...

It’s kind of hard to discern from the article, so is fat good and was unfairly blamed? Or fat and sugar are both bad, but they emphasized the fat part?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#202

Post by lovecg »

ijidak wrote: post #196
bmitc wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, within the first two months of its operation, the new plant was plagued by more cases of lead poisoning, hallucinations, insanity, and five deaths. > On October 30, 1924, Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do…

> Environmental historian J. R. McNeill opined that Midgley "had more impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history" I can't stop laughing when I read this. But it is shocking that one human can have such an impact on Earth. It's actually kind of scary. What's to stop the next nut, perhaps in a country outside the reach of international law, from causing the same?

It can work both ways though. A single person can also invent a scalable way to sequester CO2 for example.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#203

Post by jjoonathan »

bobthechef wrote: post #192
afavour wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

I think there are always people around, more than we care to admit, who will do things they know are bad to make a buck and to wield power (and frankly, most of us, sadly, have a price; look at the widespread participation of people in tech in the aforementioned industries and companies even though they and we all know the bad stuff they're doing). So I wouldn't treat this as some exception. I think people are extrem…

On the contrary, I think it's dangerous to ignore the very close link. Yes, they've switched talking points from mercury to spike proteins but it's the same playbook. The meme just got more viral when it hitched a ride on politics.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#204

Post by baobabKoodaa »

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #200
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. There's literally no-one on earth saying "I should be free to do as I want regardless of harm to others".

“I should be free to profit regardless of harm to others.” Better?

How is that better? Can you point to a single example where a person made such a claim? Just a single example. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#205

Post by nate_meurer »

dexen wrote: post #50
arbitrage wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a concern with older vehicles This hasn't been true since about 1970, and even then, it was dubious.

That only applies to car engines; aviation piston engines evolve much slower and commonly required leaded gasoline til recently - specifically for the lead content, beyond the anti-knock properties. Most common avgas is 100LL, with significant (if reduced) lead content. Cf. >Lycoming provides a list of engines and fuels that are compatible with them. According to their August 2017 chart, a number of their engines are…

Aircraft piston engine makers like Lycoming and TCM have never provided any actual evidence that unleaded avgas increases engine wear. Their assertions that leaded gas provides lubrication are anecdotal and borderline superstitious. TCM pretty much admits this in its literature:

"Field experience has determined the use of unleaded automotive gasoline to be the cause of premature cylinder replacement due primarily to rapid and severe valve seat recession." [1]

They don't ever present evidence from controlled testing that backs up their "field experience". And controlled testing of automotive engines has shown that leaded fuels don't provide any significant protection. [2]

Twenty years ago, aviation writer John Deakin issued a challenge for anyone to provide good evidence that leaded avgas prevents engine wear [3]. As far as I know that challenge was never met .

1 - https://web.archive.org/web/20171004135916/https://pceonline...

2 - https://archive.epa.gov/international/air/web/pdf/vsr-finald...

3 - https://www.avweb.com/features/pelicans-perch-55lead-in-the-...

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#206

Post by heresie-dabord »

afavour wrote: post #140
paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

> Maybe an overwrought comparison

Yes, I assert that comparing social media to a deadly substance is overwrought, hyperbolic, and not lucid enough to be helpful.

Lead causes brain damage and kills people.

What we call social media is an advertising business offering free channels of shallow discourse as incentive. The business has delivered.

Consider social media to be a test of the education system and of democracy in general. If society has failed the test, the test has been useful indeed.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#207

Post by botverse »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #206
afavour wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

> Maybe an overwrought comparison Yes, I assert that comparing social media to a deadly substance is overwrought, hyperbolic, and not lucid enough to be helpful. Lead causes brain damage and kills people. What we call social media is an advertising business offering free channels of shallow discourse as incentive. The business has delivered. Consider social media to be a test of the education system and of democracy…

That is unfortunately not trying to see the problem from the future hindsight. Which is the exercise that GP is suggesting.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#208

Post by mschuster91 »

afavour wrote: post #140
paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

> even body image issues from touched up photos,

Body image issues from advertising was an issue that existed way before the advent of Instagram, though - even before the first line of Photoshop was coded. Ultra-thin, half starved and sometimes drugged models were the norm for way, way too many years.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#209

Post by dundarious »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #171
krisgee wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perhaps the government should open companies that are meant to lose money and are tax supported (for-loss conpanies) that compete with the industry with solutions that are good for the people but bad for business? Many government owned companies actually make a profit until private industry lobbies them into ineffectiveness. The US Post Office was profitable until a change lobbied by Fed-Ex and UPS forced them to ke…

I think this is an overly simplistic (and I've seen this argument on the internet a lot) argument. It's true that there are a lot of people, especially in Anglo countries, who oppose any policy that could allow the State to be enriched. But it's also true that there are many crappy state-owned enterprises. My family came from a developing country that used to have _most_ things run by the state, and there was widespr…

Provision of services is usually corrupt and high cost in less developed countries regardless of who’s providing it: public or private sector. That is my personal experience.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#210

Post by Aloha »

nate_meurer wrote: post #134
Aloha wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TEL (tetraethyl lead) had and has other advantages over ethanol beyond patentability - Unlike TEL, ethanol is hydrophilic, which makes gasoline blended with it more apt to be contaminated with water, and other water containing contaminants, this is particularly relevant for aviation uses and also reducing incidences of vapor lock. TEL is also (more) rubber and seal friendly, other than the (very) high risk of lead to…

> TEL also acts as a natural lubricant of its own, the lead acting as lubricant, particularly on valve and other top end engine components. This is a myth. TEL has no lubricative properties in engines. The reality is opposite; lead deposits are corrosive. From https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/... : "The temperature for Lead deposits to form tend to be favourable around the spark plugs (as t…

TEL before combustion does have lubricative qualities, much in the way phosphorus does in oil or sulfur does in diesel fuel.

After combustion, its like any heavy metal being burned, it turns into an oxide, which has a variety of characteristics.

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