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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#351

Post by TeeMassive »

Retric wrote: post #271
linuxftw wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that it is. They were already able to distribute the product under EUA. The push for 'full approval' was entirely political. What's the bar for full approval? Whatever the FDA says it is. Usually that includes convening the advisory committee. That didn't happen. Recently, 3 members resigned from said committee. While these resignations weren't about the vaccines, they were about a lack of trust in FDA (interi…

People avoiding vaccination and thus dying because the FDA hasn’t done full approval is more than a political issue. It’s a real heath issue and exactly the kind of public health problem the FDA is concerned with. The general public doesn’t understand that expedited approval was a well understood category years before COVID and designed exactly for situations like this. Check the way back machine of your feeling para…

> People avoiding vaccination and thus dying because the FDA hasn’t done full approval is more than a political issue

People can refuse medical treatments, even if deemed in their utmost interest.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#352

Post by spookthesunset »

drewrv wrote: post #347
spookthesunset wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Y'all had 1.6 years to do this. And no, the present ICU loads are not gonna be "the new normal". Covid is here forever. We knew this way, way back in March of 2020. Only now are people finally getting the message. Life is short. We cannot play this game anymore. The time to go back to actual, 2019 pre pandemic normal is today.

I take your argument as “covid will be around forever so we should act like it doesn’t exist” which is nonsensical to me. I’m not sure I can come up with a more charitable interpretation: sometimes things change and societies need to adapt.

There is nothing unique or special about covid that requires society to adapt to some dystopian "new normal". There is nothing but fear that stops society from returning back to what life was like in 2019. Many places are completely over this already.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#353

Post by Retric »

TeeMassive wrote: post #351
Retric wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People avoiding vaccination and thus dying because the FDA hasn’t done full approval is more than a political issue. It’s a real heath issue and exactly the kind of public health problem the FDA is concerned with. The general public doesn’t understand that expedited approval was a well understood category years before COVID and designed exactly for situations like this. Check the way back machine of your feeling para…

> People avoiding vaccination and thus dying because the FDA hasn’t done full approval is more than a political issue People can refuse medical treatments, even if deemed in their utmost interest.

This isn’t about the option to refuse, this is about the reasons someone refuses.

The FDA does quite a bit of outreach over heath and food safety because information has real public health implications. Ex: https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/selecting...

Which isn’t to say their doing a great job, just that they consider it part of their mandate and they get funding for it.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#354

Post by spookthesunset »

jlokier wrote: post #334
spookthesunset wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which means other people's behaviour still affects you. We have multiple vaccines for well over 9 months now. Anybody who needs them can get them for free. Covid is never going away -- it is endemic. Dragging this pandemic game past vaccines is unethical as hell. People need to accept that covid is always around now and get back to actual life. It may come as a shock to some people but there is an entire world of p…

Sure, you can weigh up your value system how you like. My comment was to address the parent's serious misleading factual idea about immunity, and provide some nuanced background to readers who may find that useful, as the GP's summary is a false but attractively simplistic belief that a lot of people hold about the vaccines. For some people that misunderstanding is causing them to act against their own personal value…

I mean, at some point we must return to what life was like prior to march of 2020. There is nothing unique or special about covid that requires anything but a full return of actual normal. Mankind has lived with respiratory illness since, well, forever.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#355

Post by TeeMassive »

shkkmo wrote: post #245
TeeMassive wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those IDs are not meant to 1) show your medical history which is a protected right and 2) is used as a way to coerce a medical intervention which is against free and informed consent. Forcing medical interventions in the name of the public good has always degenerated in the worse atrocities and abuses in history.

> Forcing medical interventions in the name of the public good has always degenerated in the worse atrocities and abuses in history. Then you have examples of the "worst atrocities and abuses in history" that were due to schools requiring vaccinations?

Is this a joke?

Japan's Unit 731

The Nazi medical experiments

MK Ultra in the US and Canada and elsewhere in the world

Lobotomy and the other psychiatric abuses

The human atomic bomb and nuclear radiation experiments

Tuskegee syphilis experiments

Buck v. Bell which game way to +70k forced sterilizations, which by the way relied upon Jacobson v. Massachusetts where the State forced vaccination upon someone who had adverse effects.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#356

Post by TeeMassive »

howinteresting wrote: post #190
TeeMassive wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those IDs are not meant to 1) show your medical history which is a protected right and 2) is used as a way to coerce a medical intervention which is against free and informed consent. Forcing medical interventions in the name of the public good has always degenerated in the worse atrocities and abuses in history.

Vaccinations are already forced on e.g. school-going kids in the name of the public good, for very good reasons!

They're often not forced for mundane tasks such as going to the restaurant or the gym. And the vaccines were administered for decades prior and for diseases far more dangerous than Covid19.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#357

Post by belter »

0-_-0 wrote: post #268
belter wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the active cases graph starting at 8 Aug and the line to latest 10 of Sep. In approximately 45,000 cases there is a variation of -/+ 2000 is that not basically a straight line? Also what I mean by there is no correlation between deaths and the vaccination program, and there, I could have been a bit clear in my explanation, is the following: Again looking at the active cases diagram between 3 of March and 15 o…

Look at case fatality rate in Portugal: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor... It dropped off a cliff from 2.9% at its highest to about 0.5% today.

I used the same graph as you but superimposed India ( 13% vaccinations only) pandemic behavior is a copy slight shifted in time 2-3 months:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#358

Post by rdtwo »

mcny wrote: post #106
scrollaway wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blood donors are going to be underrepresentative of people with a fear of needles, people who don't trust the medical system, and be overrepresentative of selfless people. I suspect an extremely strong correlation between giving blood and being vaccinated.

I agree that there must be a strong correlation. I had a classmate who was horrified to learn I checked the organ donor box in my driver's license. Their parents told them if you check that box, the medical staff will be more likely to let you die so they can reuse your parts. I did't have any authoritative answer but the point is there are people out there with fears that sound rational but are completely in the rea…

I checked no for the same reason. Also I don’t want corporations to profit off my body parts. It would be different if they shared the money with my family or they at least got to choose who got them.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#359

Post by rdtwo »

shkkmo wrote: post #215
mcny wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there must be a strong correlation. I had a classmate who was horrified to learn I checked the organ donor box in my driver's license. Their parents told them if you check that box, the medical staff will be more likely to let you die so they can reuse your parts. I did't have any authoritative answer but the point is there are people out there with fears that sound rational but are completely in the rea…

In the US there are issues with the organ donation checkbox. I am fine with organs going to save the lives of people on waiting lists. I am less fine with my tissues veying harvested by corrupt "non-profits" that re-sell my bits in commodity markets while undermining the ethics of medical examiners and coroners. I wish there was a way to do one and not the other.

This is the reason for me too. Someone is making a handsome profit off my body parts and that’s not cool

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#360

Post by rdtwo »

pbourke wrote: post #289
angelzen wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Vaccines have helped in great measure. OTOH, there are other forces at play. The very existence of covid waves that come and recede much faster than the increase in the vaccination rate should be an indication that vaccines, while very helpful, are not the end all of covid pushback mechanisms. For example in US delta is receding after a couple months of mayhem. R is estimated https://covidestim.org . There…

> What concrete benefit do people expect from an additional 10% of the population being forced to vaccinate? An intact hospital / critical care system.

The system is failing under the weight of its own policies.

Underpaying and understaffing nurses Failing to provide ppe And a whole slew of covid related policies that deny folks “non critical “ care like cancer treatment and surgery. I mean my friends couldn’t even get in to see their pcp for 2 weeks for an illness that presented with fever, finally gave up and hit the er. Vaccines are nice but they won’t fix this

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