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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

141–150 of 428 posts

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#141
post #103

There are many octane boosters in addition to lead and ethanol. Like N-methyl aniline, ethers like MTBE and ETBE, and modifying the gasoline composition to replace low-octane components with high-octane components like aromatics, and so-called super alkylate. Most of these have disadvantages of their own, and tend to be more expensive. So TEL won for a reason. Particularly if you ignore things like diffuse health eff…

Yes, not to mention the lubricant properties of the lead for the valve seats and guides.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only wish that more people realized that we didn’t have to start with something so destructive before we could “get better eventually”.

Implying we would know about all possible destructiveness at time of invention.

Isn't the article's primary claim exactly that?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#143
post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

[deleted]

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#144
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neil deGrasse Tyson said in an episode of Cosmos that even the Romans understood lead was dangerous, but it was a convenient metal to work with, so they used it anyway

And not just and convenient metal, but a preferred food and wine sweetener. For real!

Also an important pigment (white lead), which was not only widely used in paints until the 20th century (though the US amongst others still hasn't signed the 1923 white lead convention), but also hugely popular cosmetics (skin whiteners): lead powder, lead paints, lead/mercury, lead/vinegar (venetian ceruse).

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#145
post #127
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines (outside of bush planes) are not using AvGas in any substantive quantity, and have not been since the early 60's. The amount of AvGas used a year is dwarfed (several times over) by the amount of Jet Fuel (Jet A does not have TEL in it). AvGas (which uses TEL) is used by general aviation exclusively.

For people not familiar with terminology, “general aviation” does not mean “regular airplanes”, but, to a first approximation, “small piston-engined airplanes”, operated by hobbyists or small charter operations.

I don't think most "small charter operations" would be General Aviation (unless I understand what's being chartered here?) and although most GA planes are pistons that's not part of the definition. What matters is why you're flying, not what you fly.

The categories (for non-military use) are generally Scheduled or Air Transport (any time you buy tickets for a flight, that's the category, you don't know or care who is flying, you paid for the journey between a specific origin and destination at a specific time; a FedEx plane is also Transport), then Commercial (not Transport but somebody is getting paid to fly aircraft, maybe it's crop spraying, TV news copter, police, or just another TV priest being flown around in his private jet), and only if nobody was getting paid is it General Aviation.

If your cosmetic dentist can afford a brand new Vision Jet so that he can live 100 miles away and fly in to do $5000 appointments without sitting in traffic, that's General Aviation. The authorities don't care that he's getting paid to be a dentist, he's not getting paid to fly his plane.

If your airline uses a relatively tiny PA-42 to get customers to an obscure but important airstrip with maybe 3-4 passengers per day that's still Air Transport.

On the other hand if some oil sheik owns their own A320 with their own custom decor and has a team of pilots to fly it wherever they want, that's still only Commercial, not Air Transport because nobody is buying tickets, it just goes wherever he wants.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#146
post #7

Gasoline is poison in general though

It is fairly trivial to avoid drinking gasoline. For example, I managed it 100 per cent of the time so far, and I am 43. It is not as trivial to avoid breathing in lead when you live around cars that use leaded gasoline.

Toxic fumes from burning unleaded gasoline are actually a big problem and your car has a lot of expensive catalytic stuff to limit them.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#147
post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

> Perhaps the government should open companies that are meant to lose money

Canada used to have crown corporations (until conservative governments sold them off to do a one time balancing of the budget).

When done well the crown Corp. serves a valuable purpose. The government no longer needs to rely on industry to tell them what is needed.

Eg. In this scenario the crown Corp. refinery would have their own scientists doing research to stop the engine knock and those scientists would have the expertise to know of safer alternatives and would use those as additives. Creating a more competitive environment.

The government can also use those industry experts to get honest answers on what the industry needs. Eg. “Mr. lobbyist, If these safety standards increase your industry’s costs too much then how come our own government plant is seeing net cost savings due to lower worker injuries?”

It’s a crime that in short term interests crown corps have largely stopped being a thing.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#148

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

CO₂ could be candidate. Perhaps the effect will be even at a grander scale than leaded gas.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#149
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The complexity is in proving what harm is being done and to whom.

Not generally. It mainly gets complex when the latter side wants to deny the harm. Then it's an ocean of motivated reasoning and endless arguments. We still have people arguing today that American slavery was good for the slaves.

Excellent! Together we can ban fast food and sugar consumption for the greater good. Heart disease and diabetes from the scourge of empty calories finally eliminated. Hundreds of thousands saved each year from poor choices. Up next: sedentary lifestyle enablers :).

It’s such a rabbit hole, who should know best?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politicians live on fixed budgets, any private wealth is put in index funds I like where you are going with all this, but I'll nitpick here that while tying politicians' wealth to the overall stock market in general reduces their incentive to legislate in favor of particular companies, it does provide them incentive to legislate in favor of corporate America in general. We don't need laws that help stock market par…

> 50% of Americans don't hold stock in any form Maybe we should address that problem -- it's one of the best long term ways for anyone to build wealth. Why aren't we educating people about this in school?

I don't think that's a good assumption. What you know is that, at the moment, some kinds of owning stock are effective at building wealth FOR NOW.

It could have inherent failure modes you're not taking into account. For instance, if systemic crashes are built into the model, and 'anyone' as a class is substantially more likely to risk such crashes and lose everything, that changes the calculation.

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