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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#211

Post by snovv_crash »

hervature wrote: post #163
junon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against free and informed consent This is a problem - it is often not very informed. As for medical history, we have to show vaccination records for a number of things - school, travel sometimes, certain lines of work. Proof of vaccination against a highly mutation-prone virus in the midst of a pandemic doesn't reveal anything more about you than it would about anyone else - which is specifically allowed via HIPAA,…

What about waiting for full FDA approval? I agree that your Facebook Mom groups are full of BS but why are PhD earners more hesitant than only high school educated [1]. [1] - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v...

Full FDA approval has happened though. It was basically just a formality that anti-vaxxers managed to find. At this point the vaccines are known to be safe, they have billions of doses given.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#212

Post by howinteresting »

hervature wrote: post #204
howinteresting wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pfizer vaccine has already received full FDA approval, and Moderna is expected to get it shortly.

Exactly, I'm just pointing out that there were (and still are in my opinion) valid scientific and rational thinking for being hesitant of getting the vaccine.

I am fine with people being hesitant to get the vaccine, as long as those people are fine with being excluded from all non-essential social activities.

Where my sympathies really like is with people who *want" the vaccine but cannot get one due to circumstances (no paid time off, live in an inaccessible area, under the control of an anti-vaxxer, etc.)

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#213

Post by tazjin »

howinteresting wrote: post #198
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand that the restaurants were closing “one by one” because the government was closing them, and not because patrons were not attending them? It was a self-inflected wound.

What is your evidence for the implied counterfactual?

I'm not the parent poster, but to answer: All the countries in which restaurants, bars etc. are open as normal, no "health passports" and other newspeak gadgets are needed, and the apocalypse still hasn't happened.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#214

Post by smileypete »

_Microft wrote: post #12
NomeChomsky wrote: post #3

Good. There is no evidence to support them. You can still transmit the virus whilst double vaccinated. They do not slow spread only hospitalisation.

Dr. Drosten [0], maybe Germany's most well known virologist at the moment, recently commented on rules to only allow vaccinated/recovered (but not unvaccinated but tested) people into restaurants and venues [1]. The reasoning behind that is a lot different than you would expect. It is not because unvaccinated would pose a threat to others but because they are at risk of catching the disease from a vaccinated, infecte…

It is not because unvaccinated would pose a threat to others but because they are at risk of catching the disease from a vaccinated, infected but asymptomatic guest

Haven't read your link yet but I'd expect a double vaccinated 65 year old is still waaaaay more vulnerable than an unvaccinated 18 year old.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#215

Post by shkkmo »

mcny wrote: post #106
scrollaway wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blood donors are going to be underrepresentative of people with a fear of needles, people who don't trust the medical system, and be overrepresentative of selfless people. I suspect an extremely strong correlation between giving blood and being vaccinated.

I agree that there must be a strong correlation. I had a classmate who was horrified to learn I checked the organ donor box in my driver's license. Their parents told them if you check that box, the medical staff will be more likely to let you die so they can reuse your parts. I did't have any authoritative answer but the point is there are people out there with fears that sound rational but are completely in the rea…

In the US there are issues with the organ donation checkbox. I am fine with organs going to save the lives of people on waiting lists. I am less fine with my tissues veying harvested by corrupt "non-profits" that re-sell my bits in commodity markets while undermining the ethics of medical examiners and coroners. I wish there was a way to do one and not the other.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#216

Post by shkkmo »

quotemstr wrote: post #187
kuraudo wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said, but I think the problem we're fighting is that people don't view these as vaccines so much as preventive treatment now. The Israel, Malta, and Iceland cases with very high vaccination rates and growing number of hospitalizations means we need to acknowledge that these things don't confer immunity, but that their benefit is still tangible and real in that it confers better outcomes to those that do contract…

> benefit is still tangible and real in that it confers better outcomes to those that do contract the disease The thing is that a treatment having real and tangible benefits is not an adequate justification for the state imposing that treatment by force. And yes, laws requiring vaccine passports for participation in public life are a use of state force. If the police stop you doing something, that means the state is…

> the state imposing that treatment by force.

Do you have examples of the use of force?

> we don't mandate things merely because they're good for people

Vaccinations were already mandated for all sorts of things, from crossing borders to attending schools.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#217

Post by commandlinefan »

azalemeth wrote: post #44
cstross wrote: post #2

Note this is specific to England . Other countries in the UK are following their own course -- the Scottish government agreed in principle to introduce vaccine passports as of a week ago and will require them for entry to large venues from October 1st: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-passports-requir... The NHS is a fully devolved issue, with separate NHS organizations in Wales, England, Northern Ireland,…

This is very true. I personally find it mad that the UK is the nation with the highest covid infection rate in western europe, with ~30k new cases/day. Long covid is a real, debilitating condition and if anything is going to affect the young -- who are least vaccinated -- the most, thus creating a long-term disease burden and morbidity cost on both those individuals and the country as a whole. Ignoring the human cost…

> short, sharp dip

Short? It’s been a year and a half with no end in sight.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#218

Post by arrosenberg »

hervature wrote: post #163
junon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against free and informed consent This is a problem - it is often not very informed. As for medical history, we have to show vaccination records for a number of things - school, travel sometimes, certain lines of work. Proof of vaccination against a highly mutation-prone virus in the midst of a pandemic doesn't reveal anything more about you than it would about anyone else - which is specifically allowed via HIPAA,…

What about waiting for full FDA approval? I agree that your Facebook Mom groups are full of BS but why are PhD earners more hesitant than only high school educated [1]. [1] - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v...

If it’s not a PhD in biochemistry or something similar, then it’s not relevant to their decision making abilities. FDA approval is based on having enough data to determine efficacy and safety - with so many administered doses at this point there is no question about either of those things.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#219

Post by angelzen »

dia80 wrote: post #150
quotemstr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pushing for more vaccines will change the situation in any way that makes you happy. Given that even highly-vaccinated localities like Iceland (74% vaccinated) keep seeing waves of COVID cases and that COVID waves peak and decline without countries achieving the 90% rate vaccine proponents suggest as the threshold for herd immunity, we have to begin seriously questioning the public health case for mandatory univers…

Vaccines cut severity of disease and thus the societal burden of infection. While I agree these measures are potentially draconian it's wrong to say they convey no benefit.

Very true. Vaccines have helped in great measure. OTOH, there are other forces at play. The very existence of covid waves that come and recede much faster than the increase in the vaccination rate should be an indication that vaccines, while very helpful, are not the end all of covid pushback mechanisms. For example in US delta is receding after a couple months of mayhem. R is estimated https://covidestim.org.

There is a point after which the effect of human measures becomes marginal. If anything because most people would have been already exposed to covid, with or without vaccines. I can't say whether we've passed that point or not, but OTOH the draconians have not made their case either. What concrete benefit do people expect from an additional 10% of the population being forced to vaccinate?

Long term there are concerns of vaccine escape. Pfizer CEO raised them recently, it's not just the 5G conspiracists. A new strain emerges for which vaccines aren't that helpful against severe complications. Some people, myself included (I am vaccinated thank you very much) are concerned that creating a population with immune monoculture is likely to result in strains bypassing the monoculture. The nightmare scenario is the emergence of a strain for which the vaccines are a net negative. Hopefully nothing terrible happens. But we don't know. Nobody knows. Perhaps we should not be placing all our eggs in the same basket, e.g. not (force) vaccinate everyone against the exact same protein.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#220

Post by thepasswordis »

sudosysgen wrote: post #205
thepasswordis wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, again this is a great talking point for those who are enjoying their newfound power, but unfortunately for them (and fortunately for the inhabitants of this country!) the numbers do not bare this out: https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/hospitalization-utiliza... Do you know of a hospital system that’s overloaded in the way you are worried about? I’ve seen plenty of bloggers who talk about this, but they never…

What kind of argument is there to cite a single state's COVID ICU utilization as an argument? First of all, that's not total ICU utilization, which is the metric that should interests you. Illinois, the state you cherry-picked, has only 508 ICU beds remaining out of 3127. That's one doubling away from disaster. Here's an example of people dying because they couldn't find an ICU bed : https://meaww.com/ray-demonia-car…

78% ICU utilization is about the base load for ICUs.

Hospitals are businesses. They don’t just create tons of empty ICU beds and then never use them.

If you are getting your information from for profit blogs and magazines then I’d suggest doing a quick analysis on their motivations. Do you think they have more motivation to get you to click on their products, or more motivation to give you valid (but boring) information?

Most of the states (all? I’ve looked at a lot of them) have some for of data dashboard that will give you a better overview of this. I’d highly suggest checking those instead of twitter/blogs/etc. It might not give the data that you are hoping for, but that’s kindof the behavior that is the problem (seeking out blogs and magazines that confirm your priors)

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