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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#131

Post by javagram »

thepasswordis wrote: post #94

The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get a…

> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you.

The vaccine reduces the chance you can get and transmit covid. 40-60% protection against infection, and even when there is a breakthrough case viral load declines faster than in an unvaccinated person meaning less chance and time to spread the virus to others.

> So why these vaccine mandates? Vaccine passports? Etc. Because people simply enjoy the act of getting to tell others what to do. Anybody who has ever interacted with an HOA will be familiar with this.

No, it’s because lots of people are literally dying. An HOA arguing with you over the color of your garage door or the height of your lawn is, at most, trying to protect property values or as you say just being a busybody.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#132

Post by selimthegrim »

Loveaway wrote: post #72
libertine wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just let people decide if they want to get the vaccination or not, and go on with life as normal. Uh, where did I say that people shouldn't decide? Do you think we got +80% (87% if you factor in single doses), at gun point? If these passports had an influence on 5 percentual points I was being extremely generous. It's all about education, being informed, and a sense of duty. Probably the majority where fearful and a…

No the tourists have to put up with YOUR shit. You are immune for fucks sake, how hard is it to actually be welcoming and say: It's ok for unvaccinated to enter a restaurant. We can live without implicitly checking everyone. We don't need to be like that and can act like normal decent humans again! Is that so hard?

So when I visit your house I can put my feet up on your couch like Rick James/Dave Chappelle? Take New Orleans for example. Do they have to let nonresident tourists determine their policies?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#133

Post by mcny »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #56
Aeolun wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure if I would consider the vice of drinking alcohol quite the same as the vice of infecting and potentially killing other people.

Every day 28 people die in the US from drunk driving crashes https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving 261 per day from excessive alcohol use https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death... Alcohol consumption directly affects people who do not consume it in a multitude of ways from the monetary cost of increased demand on the health care system, police, prisons and damage to public property t…

I for one fully support a complete ban on humans manually operating motor vehicles as soon as we can get to self driving cars.

A scarier argument that I saw yesterday was something called a welfare check or something in which a police officer and a jail doctor can just declare you something like insane and you no longer have any medical autonomy.

You don't have to reach for hypotheticals about how we will ban people from eating a second cookie or a full size candy bar. This is the law we have today. People with mental health issues apparently have effectively no rights. Imagine making the wrong people angry and you end up drugged up in a strait jacket... Or if you want to go conspiracy theorist, a specific set of photos appears in your iCloud account and you face prison time where you are very likely to face abuse from the guards and other prisoners alike. This is also the reality we already have, no need to reach for hypotheticals.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#134

Post by bequanna »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #126
thepasswordis wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be okay with a card showing your religious affiliation before being allowed into a crowded public space? Or before being allowed to rent a truck, or buy fertilizer? Even though this would likely make the world safer: I wouldn't, and even though it wouldn't prevent me from doing anything, I would still resist it. But it would increase my safety, even though it would inconvenience some other people based on t…

Why do you think it would increase your safety? That's not at all obvious to me.

There is a well known trade off between public safety and personal freedom. I believe that is the point the parent comment is trying to make.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#135

Post by javagram »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #46
throwawaylinux wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could ban elderly and overweight people and other such undesirables^Wvulnerable people from civil society too. For their own good.

This is snarky but poses a real question. If we ban people from spaces or events due to their vulnerability to COVID then why do we not do the same for those vulnerable to other diseases? Flu is a good example for the young and elderly since it poses a significant risk. It would strain the argument but you could make a case for banning the obese from fast food restaurants based on this reasoning as well.

Because covid is 10-50x more deadly than the flu, it makes more sense to advocate for precautions against it.

Just got my flu shot this week, but even for the young and healthy covid is more dangerous than the flu, except possibly in young children ages 0-12.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#136

Post by charbonneau »

skytreader wrote: post #86
throwaway316943 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is snarky but poses a real question. If we ban people from spaces or events due to their vulnerability to COVID then why do we not do the same for those vulnerable to other diseases? Flu is a good example for the young and elderly since it poses a significant risk. It would strain the argument but you could make a case for banning the obese from fast food restaurants based on this reasoning as well.

Don't forget what makes COVID19 so insidious: without testing, it takes time before an infected contagious person shows symptoms. By the time they decide to stay off public spaces, they have already potentially spread the virus. With the common flu, you know almost instantly so you stay home to recover. Fat people know their condition and it's their choice to eat fast food anyway. And obesity is also non contagious.

> Symptoms can begin about 2 days (but can range from 1 to 4 days) after the virus enters the body. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Some people can be infected with the flu virus but have no symptoms. During this time, those people may still spread the virus to others.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#137

Post by javagram »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #19
_Microft wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr. Drosten [0], maybe Germany's most well known virologist at the moment, recently commented on rules to only allow vaccinated/recovered (but not unvaccinated but tested) people into restaurants and venues [1]. The reasoning behind that is a lot different than you would expect. It is not because unvaccinated would pose a threat to others but because they are at risk of catching the disease from a vaccinated, infecte…

They could ban elderly and overweight people and other such undesirables^Wvulnerable people from civil society too. For their own good.

Overweight and elderly is not something you can fix in an hour with a free vaccine shot. Don’t you see the obvious difference?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#138

Post by mcny »

Ekaros wrote: post #116
nobodyandproud wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we have laws to hold people accountable when under the influence, they do something bad and affect someone else. That’s a fantastic idea: Start holding the unvaccinated criminally responsible, if they’re the likely point of infection for someone else. Thanks for the idea.

Why not apply that to also vaccinated people?

You will go to jail for repeatedly driving drunk even if you never have an accident.

Do you also want prison time for unvaccinated people who repeatedly go out in public? I support you if you do.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#139

Post by gadders »

tchalla wrote: post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

Voting?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#140

Post by amanaplanacanal »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #63
tinus_hn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same brand of ‘successes’ can be achieved by banning alcohol, tobacco, fast food or whatever vice you want.

Those who are downvoting this are being blatantly disingenuous. Tobacco alone kills over 480,000 people per year in the US. There is a very strong case for banning it if your fundamental concern is the health of others and the upkeep of the health system. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal... Alcohol kills another 95,000 per year in the US https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcoh…

Let's start with the simplest: tobacco. There is no way to make it disappear, you can only make it illegal. Our experiments with making other addictive drugs illegal had been a complete failure, I doubt you could even find convincing research that shows that making them illegal has led to less deaths due to them. Whereas vaccine passports appear to actually work. That is a major difference.
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