Reading threads like this, I get the sense that the very notion of civil liberties is completely foreign to vaccine fans.
England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
111–120 of 460 posts
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
For me the major point of vaccinating others is ensuring hospitals are not overwhelmed and have enough capacity to treat other patients and perform elective procedures. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/...
Yeah this sure is a common talking point that comes up, but unfortunately for those who enjoy enforcing these things, it is not backed up by any data. Daily deaths (which is the best proxy we have for hospitalization) is nowhere near any of the peaks we have had in the last year and a half. If somehow deaths are down but hospital capacity is also down, that is the fault of the hospitals, not the vaccinated. https://w…
Did you read the linked article? The governor of one of the largest US states asked hospitals to delay elective procedures to ensure hospital capacity.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not sure if I would consider the vice of drinking alcohol quite the same as the vice of infecting and potentially killing other people.
I think alcohol might be even more dangerous to others than being unvaccinated. Violent drug users are well known ending up in fights and even causing death or permanent damage when they attack randomly at others during night. Or even kill them sometimes. So I think we should apply the new standard to it and ban it totally.
And we have laws to hold people accountable when under the influence, they do something bad and affect someone else.
That’s a fantastic idea: Start holding the unvaccinated criminally responsible, if they’re the likely point of infection for someone else.
Thanks for the idea.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
For me the major point of vaccinating others is ensuring hospitals are not overwhelmed and have enough capacity to treat other patients and perform elective procedures. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/...
Yeah this sure is a common talking point that comes up, but unfortunately for those who enjoy enforcing these things, it is not backed up by any data. Daily deaths (which is the best proxy we have for hospitalization) is nowhere near any of the peaks we have had in the last year and a half. If somehow deaths are down but hospital capacity is also down, that is the fault of the hospitals, not the vaccinated. https://w…
You seem to be missing another option: that treatments get better so that hospitalization leads to fewer deaths than it did earlier. Which seems obviously true.
Why would deaths be the best proxy for hospitalization? Why don't you have actual hospitalization numbers?
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not sure if I would consider the vice of drinking alcohol quite the same as the vice of infecting and potentially killing other people.
Every day 28 people die in the US from drunk driving crashes https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving 261 per day from excessive alcohol use https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death... Alcohol consumption directly affects people who do not consume it in a multitude of ways from the monetary cost of increased demand on the health care system, police, prisons and damage to public property t…
Drunk driving is very illegal. If we could identify unvaccinated people who infected others and punish that with jail time, would you be happy about that?
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think alcohol might be even more dangerous to others than being unvaccinated. Violent drug users are well known ending up in fights and even causing death or permanent damage when they attack randomly at others during night. Or even kill them sometimes. So I think we should apply the new standard to it and ban it totally.
And we have laws to hold people accountable when under the influence, they do something bad and affect someone else. That’s a fantastic idea: Start holding the unvaccinated criminally responsible, if they’re the likely point of infection for someone else. Thanks for the idea.
Why not apply that to also vaccinated people?
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vaccine passport proponents routinely cite "slowing [the] spread" as a reason to impose vaccination requirements despite discoveries earlier this year showing that vaccinated individuals can still spread the disease. In light of these discoveries, vaccine passports and other coercive measures don't make any dense. Delta has an R value of 8. That makes it one of the most infectious diseases we know about. Future varia…
Delta has an R value of 6 to 7. Measles has a much higher R value of 12 to 18, yet the vaccination is highly successful. You’re promoting disinformation.
The vaccine for measles is sterilizing. The vaccines for COVID are not. They're two completely separate classes of intervention. I'm not the one spreading disinformation here.
Just because substance A and substance B are both called "vaccines" doesn't mean that A and B have comparable effects and can be treated the same way.
It is simply not medically possible for COVID vaccination to stop the spread of COVID. We have to accept that and move on with our lives.
The government is not justified in mandating any medical treatment merely because that treatment is good for you. The vaccines seem beneficial, yes. This fact alone does not justify the use of state power. We have a 70-year-old taboo against involuntary medical treatment for a very good reason. The weak threat of COVID combined with the insufficiency of our vaccines suggests that we don't have a compelling case for breaking this taboo.
The vaccines may be beneficial on an individual level but I do not see a case for mandates.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#118Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#119The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get a…
> The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but . . . not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them.
This isn't true, though.
Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says
#120The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get a…
Wouldn’t another reason be to reduce cost? It’s expensive to treat covid patients and the vaccine is proven to reduce the incidents of hospitalization. But I’m willing to forgo all vaccine mandates, mask mandates, etc if we can all agree that unvaccinated have to pay for their own treatment or buy bespoke covid insurance.
As an unvaccinated (but protected by naturally-acquired immunity) I completely agree with this. As long as the same is true for car accident victims (except pedestrians), HIV patients (except those that got it via birth/rape), obese people, smokers, drinkers, skiers, ... All these are 100% voluntary activities that put undue burden on the medical system.