Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#301

Post by Allypost » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

basilgohar wrote: post #141

makeitdouble wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I think there is no way to heavily use Google properties (in particular drive, docs and meet) without Chrome. I tried through the years, and always ended up with a main browser (Safari or now Firefox) and Chrome as a Google dedicated browser, because the experience would be miserable otherwise. At this point I stopped blaming the other browsers.

While Google apps definitely perform less than ideally for me on Firefox, I think that falls far short of unusable. I use Google Docs, Drive, YouTube, and other Google properties in 4K on my old (5+ year old AMD Ryzen 2400G) system. I definitely don't relish using their apps, but I definitely can and don't feel hindered.

The 2400G came out in February 2018 so your system is 3.5 years old at max?

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#302

Post by betwixthewires » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #212

Xevi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched from Firefox on Android to Brave. Not because I like Brave, but because I disliked the new UI in Firefox. Brave also had much better performance for JavaScript and CSS animations.

Brave is a decent browser but I won't use anything from Brendan Eich. I also don't really agree with their BAT token stuff. I just want adtech to die at this stage, not to find an alternative model. Direct payments to sites I do support however and I'm a member of several. I guess both opinions aren't popular :) But that's my reasons to use Firefox despite not being fully happy with it.

I'm trying to use brave search as an alternative to google, since it is an actual search engine that does indexing as opposed to DDG, and I don't want to use bing either.

What upsets me is that there's no way to add it as default search in a browser, on purpose, because they want you to have to install brave browser to do that. Nothing upsets me more than when someone deliberately makes their product less useful. I do not like Brave, but I will use the search engine for now.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#303

Post by lavabiopsy » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

thayne wrote: post #292

lavabiopsy wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that's a problem, you can just modify the CSS. If you too decide that's too much work and consumes too much of your resources for not enough gain, well then now you know why Mozilla made the decision.

The ability to change that css is another one of those things that has been moved to enabling options in about:config that will probably get removed int the future. And any firefox update could potentially break your css fix.

I don't mean about:config, I mean editing the CSS directly.

Yes an update could break your CSS fix, but if you follow the beta releases then this isn't a problem. You usually have at least a few weeks to update your patches before the release goes out.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#304

Post by jollybean » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

bm3719 wrote: post #48

There's a theory in the Free Software community that BigTech sponsorship of Mozilla was intended to bring about the current state of affairs. The idea is that MS, Google, and others really have no reason to donate to a direct competitor. Perhaps they did so because they knew it would give them control. That control was exercised over the years and now Mozilla is more a social justice advocacy organization than a foun…

The reason they do it is a strategy called 'commoditize your complement'. [1]

If browsers were all private, and they had power and control, it'd be harder for G and MS to poke through.

So the 'erase' a layer of the value chain by making it all open-source.

One less barrier between them and the customer.

Chrome is as important to Google as many other things, it's just not where the revenue is captured.

[1] https://www.gwern.net/Complement

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#305

Post by jfax » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #268

noasaservice wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^ How to say you're a white male in tech, without specifically saying you're a white male in tech. meritocracy - To whom? Who decides? That's right: the kingmaker. And the kingmaker decides on those who share significant amount of the same traits. And most of these "kingmakers" in tech are 20-30 something white male. master to primary - Again, "master" in US culture has a very very bad connotation that equates with…

>the predominant license (GPL) is a anti-capitalist license GPL and RMS is not anti-capitalist, Linus Torvalds and Red Hat for example made lots of money. So you can have Proprietary license let me explain, I see people selling this idea of you buy this cheap crap from China then do a small change , sell the shit and make tons of money with almost no work(I seen other get rich schems too, with books or other stuff).…

"Communism" or "capitalism" just means "bad thing" according to different people.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#306

Post by jollybean » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:24 PM UTC

Can someone help me understand the Tabs issue?

Did they do 'Tabs on Top' before or after Chrome, and how could that be a problem, given that it seems this is the way everyone does it now?

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#307

Post by thayne » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

lavabiopsy wrote: post #303

thayne wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to change that css is another one of those things that has been moved to enabling options in about:config that will probably get removed int the future. And any firefox update could potentially break your css fix.

I don't mean about:config, I mean editing the CSS directly. Yes an update could break your CSS fix, but if you follow the beta releases then this isn't a problem. You usually have at least a few weeks to update your patches before the release goes out.

You have to change a setting in about:config to enable custom css. Unless you mean making a custom build of Firefox, which is even more difficult to do.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#308

Post by paulryanrogers » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

elcritch wrote: post #221

temphnaccount wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say other way around is true. HN crowd won't like this but it's very hard to continuously update a product for the core userbase that Firefox has. (small sample size but I maintain a small privacy focused app and from my experience, most of the reviews I get are how it's missing features which competitors have or how it's unusable because it can't handle stuff without jeopardizing privacy focused nature of the ap…

> So core userbase for these products becomes hostile towards the product growth by definition. In this environment, either the product stops growing and simply becomes a niche product for those set of users or it dies. Except FF market percentage has been decreasing not growing. The technical foundation has gotten better, but it’s like Mozilla execs are completely out of sync with the market share they could have. T…

> The technical foundation has gotten better, but it’s like Mozilla execs are completely out of sync with the market share they could have.

Execs may have less to do with the decline than a changing market. Google poured resources and new ideas into a mostly greenfield effort, and leveraged its market position to push its browser. Edge and Safari also benefit from their makers' platforms and marketing.

It's a hostile world for an independent browser. And IMO Firefox is still the least worst option.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#309

Post by paulryanrogers » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

notpushkin wrote: post #241

elcritch wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So core userbase for these products becomes hostile towards the product growth by definition. In this environment, either the product stops growing and simply becomes a niche product for those set of users or it dies. Except FF market percentage has been decreasing not growing. The technical foundation has gotten better, but it’s like Mozilla execs are completely out of sync with the market share they could have. T…

https://waterfox.net/ is what you're looking for, I believe.

FWIW, Waterfox is now owned by System1, an ad company.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#310

Post by thayne » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

lavabiopsy wrote: post #226

wilkystyle wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try looking at it from the other direction: If other products have the same playing field (modify, live with it, or change products), and Firefox is in decline while their primary competitor is not, doesn't it stand to reason that Firefox is making decisions that lose them users while their competitor is making decisions that gain them users? (edit to fix typos on mobile)

I don't really have any comments on that, sorry. I was mentioning a fix for that specific issue, or other specific issues you might have with other browsers. Most complaints I see about Firefox tend to be about specific issues rather than about overall decisions made versus their competitors.

The problem isn't any single one decision. It is a pattern of making changes that cause users don't like and ignoring negative feedback.