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Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

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Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#261
As someone who started using Firefox before it was even called Firefox, this put a smile on my face. I was there, and I remember every single quote and Mozilla's response. :)

The memory issue the post mentioned was a really long time ago, I remember they did Generational GC, Compact GC and the most important project from Mozilla, MemShrink from Nick. That was before e10s and all of that was what made Firefox memory efficient today. ( I think Nick is working at Apple now )

The failure of FirefoxOS, was mostly because of two opposing goal or ideal. They want the OS to be web based and everything to be made with JS or Web Technology. The believe of JS will be good enough and that JS VM will be fast enough runs deep inside Mozilla at the time to be point I remember FirefoxOS engineers were even afraid to speak out on why dont they just code this in C++. The other goal was they want Firefox OS to be running on low cost $50 Smartphone and somehow thinks the Smartphone hardware price will drop while performance continue to improve. I was surprised, and it was only many years later I realise most software developers have absolutely zero understanding of hardware, BOM cost, supply chain, and long term component cost development. And I still think, FirefoxOS was a distraction for Mozilla. Spreading themselves too thin while battling Chrome on PC. They really should have fought Chrome first before their move on Smartphone. And 10 years later we really do need a third OS option in the Smartphone market. Although arguably Firefox OS still lives on as KaiOS.

But again, I say this a lot on HN, and as someone who pushed through hundreds of installation of Firefox in different places, nearly every single response of switching away to Chrome was because Chrome was faster. Way faster.

And I thought it is a good time to remind ourselves, good faith and ideals only last so long. Ultimately you need to have a better product to retain your users.

Edit: And there was another point missing from the article. Mozilla refuse to support DRM and H.264 codec, a lot of users simply wanted their browser to work just left.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#262
post #48

There's a theory in the Free Software community that BigTech sponsorship of Mozilla was intended to bring about the current state of affairs. The idea is that MS, Google, and others really have no reason to donate to a direct competitor. Perhaps they did so because they knew it would give them control. That control was exercised over the years and now Mozilla is more a social justice advocacy organization than a foun…

I completely buy that argument - BigTech (in particular Google) have a huge influence today on Firefox development. Moreover, Mozilla's Firefox is deliberately hostile to the open source movement too - their code is a convulated mess by design , to discourage others from developing competing products with it. (Remember, that Firefox has provided Mozilla with 100's of millions of dollars - so the excuse of legacy code…

>Moreover, Mozilla's Firefox is deliberately hostile to the open source movement too - their code is a convulated mess by design, to discourage others from developing competing products with it.

This is total nonsense.

It's a mess because it has 25 years of legacy behind it, and because until a few years ago all of that legacy was considered a "feature" by half of the userbase, who was screaming at them not to remove the "mess" because it would break their addons. Even in this very thread you see people whining about removing XUL addon support. And ironically, most of the "competing projects" are based around preserving that mess.

It's only since 2017 that they've really been able to clean up the architecture at all. And saying that they're "hostile to open source" is practically defamatory. Mozilla has contributed more to open source across a broad swath of organizations than 99.9% of companies that are 100x their size.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a business model question, right? Mozilla has chosen to be indirectly ad-supported vs making a premium (as in paid-for) or a freemium browser as a business model. Nothing prevents someone from making a great privacy focused browser and actually charging for it? Except the fact that nobody (relative to even their current userbase) would use it, and maintaining a browser is incredibly difficult and expensive.…

But then we are in conflict as we want Mozilla to create a superior product but we are not ready pay for it? One of these expectations has to give in then.

A big part of the problem, is that for Mozilla, Firefox is a tool for their other initiatives. They use money they make from Firefox to fund their other projects. And they use the influence they get from controlling a browser to push their agenda on web standards. Not that I disagree with their agenda in most cases. But I don't think Mozilla's primary objective is to make a great browser, unfortunately.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#264
post #39

Because they are always super late. It's 2021 and we still don't have form and CB auto completion. It's been in chrome for more than 10 years already. It's such a basic feature, you earn a lot of time at not filling your address every time and even more with your card number you always forgot the number. A few month ago they finally add the tab feature for directly researching in a site except it still a lot worse us…

Savvier users would prefer this isn't saved at all. It's extremely easy for malicious software to datamine browser files for cookies/saved password/form data.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#265
post #261

As someone who started using Firefox before it was even called Firefox, this put a smile on my face. I was there, and I remember every single quote and Mozilla's response. :) The memory issue the post mentioned was a really long time ago, I remember they did Generational GC, Compact GC and the most important project from Mozilla, MemShrink from Nick. That was before e10s and all of that was what made Firefox memory e…

Good faith and ideals also stop working when your company repeatedly demonstrates that it no longer has either.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#266

I knew Mozilla was going downhill when they started purging words from the project. When your inclusion efforts start alienating moderate users it might be time to rethink them. * Removing "meritocracy" from the governance docs - https://blog.mozilla.org/careers/words-matter-moving-beyond- * Changing "master password" to "primary password" - https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/primary-password-replac * Removing "cra…

[deleted]

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#267
post #60

I have an alternative set of explanations regarding why Firefox is seeing a continuous decline for the last 12 years. 1. Mozilla is competing against Google. Numbers are not public but I would be surprised if Google didn't have 10x more people working on Chrome vs. the number of people working on Firefox. 2. Mozilla is competing against Google. Numbers are again not public but I remember reading estimates that the eq…

> 7. During the Brendan Eichgate, Mozilla became a hapless victim of the US culture wars, mostly acccidentally. Mozilla never recovered.

Defending Eich is a hot take that you only see here on HN. He is a worthless individual who champions the cause of taking away personal freedoms of groups of people he doesn't like, pushes anti-mask conspiracy and smears public workers like Fauci, and his only technical 'achievement' since leaving Mozilla has been to create a fork of chrome that bakes in his companies ads and pushes a scamcoin on the user.

The fact you even have the gall to defend such a person is laughable. It wasn't that long ago the population would summarily execute such people when they revealed their status as societal bad actors.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#268

I knew Mozilla was going downhill when they started purging words from the project. When your inclusion efforts start alienating moderate users it might be time to rethink them. * Removing "meritocracy" from the governance docs - https://blog.mozilla.org/careers/words-matter-moving-beyond- * Changing "master password" to "primary password" - https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/primary-password-replac * Removing "cra…

^^ How to say you're a white male in tech, without specifically saying you're a white male in tech. meritocracy - To whom? Who decides? That's right: the kingmaker. And the kingmaker decides on those who share significant amount of the same traits. And most of these "kingmakers" in tech are 20-30 something white male. master to primary - Again, "master" in US culture has a very very bad connotation that equates with…

>the predominant license (GPL) is a anti-capitalist license

GPL and RMS is not anti-capitalist, Linus Torvalds and Red Hat for example made lots of money.

So you can have Proprietary license let me explain, I see people selling this idea of you buy this cheap crap from China then do a small change , sell the shit and make tons of money with almost no work(I seen other get rich schems too, with books or other stuff). I think some GPL haters would love to grab GPL stuff, put their cheap shit on top and sell it and make tons of money. GPL allows you to make money though, you have to share code though so others could make money too.

P.S. I would really like to understand why GPL is anti capitalist or communist in some people mind, is it some FUD or some wrong usage of the notions.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#269

After a year of using Firefox on Macbook, I've switched back to Chrome. The laptop was running really hot just from having a few tabs opened and Youtube playing in the background. It's been much better after I've made the switch to Chrome. For privacy reasons, I would rather stick to Firefox, but I feel like the performance is worse.

Yup, the performance of browsers are highly dependent on their host. Firefox performs best on Linux (and beats the other browsers for Linux too), so the default on my Linux machine is Firefox. For Windows, it's Chrome and for Mac is Safari. Wish there was some syncing utility between the three of them, as switching between them has always been a bit of a hassle.

Apple has an extension for syncing bookmarks between devices and browsers with iCloud.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/icloud-bookma...

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/icloud-bookmarks/f...

I think it does tabs, too, but I'm not sure.

Re: Why Firefox has been in decline for 12 years

#270

I agree with this opinion piece. Firefox is a product strangely hostile to its core userbase. It's almost like they've been deliberately trying to sabotage themselves for years. I don't use it because I approve of all their stupid pigheaded UI choices, I use it because it has been the least bad option despite those choices. That might not go on for much longer, though.

I'd say other way around is true. HN crowd won't like this but it's very hard to continuously update a product for the core userbase that Firefox has. (small sample size but I maintain a small privacy focused app and from my experience, most of the reviews I get are how it's missing features which competitors have or how it's unusable because it can't handle stuff without jeopardizing privacy focused nature of the ap…

People are dumb, specially the tech community. I've been watching for at least 10 years how everyone switched to chrome because it's faster. Now we have one mega corporation in charge of both most of the search and most of the browser usage. That's literally controlling the internet.

And you made it happen by your choices.

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