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The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

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Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#31

Post by Retric »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU has been useless as a civil rights organization for quite some time. If you haven't already, I'd say it's definitely time to find a new defender of these sorts of issues.

The ACLU has let the government increase surveillance, force mask usage, and now enforce vaccine usage across millions during the pandemic. They're staying silent because they agree with the policies - and you may too - but there is no denying that in terms of invasion of personal freedom it's very great and they're turning a blind eye to it.

The ACLU is a finite organization that needs to chose which battles to fight. Suggesting their not doing enough because they don’t prioritize your issues generally means you should be funding some other organization.

https://www.eff.org/ for example may better fit your personal beliefs.

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#32

Post by Beldin »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #17
maxfurman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being trans is not a protected class, so discrimination against trans people is legal in many states. On top of that, states keep passing unconstitutional anti-trans bills like NC's famous "bathroom bill," which someone has to fight in court

Trans people have basic civil liberties already. You can't kill them, they can own property, they can work a job, they can rent a house without discrimination (legally at least), and so forth. Bathroom bills, on the other hand, require acceptance by everyone that they are who they say they are. And to put it simply, half of America (roughly speaking) doesn't find that convincing. To them, who are these people who wou…

I would think the government making laws banning folks from using certain bathrooms is very much a civil liberties issue.

But maybe it's common for US States to have laws telling men they are barred from women's toilets and vice versa, and everyone accepts those?

To me that sounds preposterous, but in such a society I could see the discussion arise.

TL;DR: if you substitute "trans" for "blacks" (or any other offensive term for a protected minority), does it become discrimination? If yes: it already was discrimination.

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#33

Post by mythrwy »

Retric wrote: post #31
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU has let the government increase surveillance, force mask usage, and now enforce vaccine usage across millions during the pandemic. They're staying silent because they agree with the policies - and you may too - but there is no denying that in terms of invasion of personal freedom it's very great and they're turning a blind eye to it.

The ACLU is a finite organization that needs to chose which battles to fight. Suggesting their not doing enough because they don’t prioritize your issues generally means you should be funding some other organization. https://www.eff.org/ for example may better fit your personal beliefs.

They are actively supporting civil non-liberties now though, in print.

They are not what they used to be.

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#34

Post by gambiting »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #17
maxfurman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being trans is not a protected class, so discrimination against trans people is legal in many states. On top of that, states keep passing unconstitutional anti-trans bills like NC's famous "bathroom bill," which someone has to fight in court

Trans people have basic civil liberties already. You can't kill them, they can own property, they can work a job, they can rent a house without discrimination (legally at least), and so forth. Bathroom bills, on the other hand, require acceptance by everyone that they are who they say they are. And to put it simply, half of America (roughly speaking) doesn't find that convincing. To them, who are these people who wou…

>>To them, who are these people who would invade their right to bathroom privacy? Do their rights not matter?

Can you please tell us which rights are being violated here exactly, I'm super curious. Most people just go into a stall, close the door, do their business and leave - who cares if they are trans or not. Do you peek into people's pants when you go into a public bathroom??

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#35

Post by owl_troupe »

AntwaneB wrote: post #10

After reading the post, I fail to see any connection between 9/11 and the fact that mass surveillance is not the way forward. The article is also empty of any reason WHY mass surveillance would not be the way forward, or even why it should not be. This is a particularly useless article.

OK I'll bite. From this article:

>The public learned about the NSA’s “PRISM” and “Upstream” programs, which involve [...] warrantless surveillance of Americans’ international communications on a massive scale.

The US executive branch engineered an automated, massive breach of the constitutional rights of US citizens and the rights of people abroad.

> The executive branch’s Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board found that the NSA’s bulk collection of Americans’ call records had produced “little unique value”[.]

These programs have yielded almost no positive results in actually increasing security, which was their stated purpose. How much does this cost? What do we get in return? What is the chilling effect on society?

>The human toll of government surveillance is undeniable. It can have far-reaching consequences for people’s lives — particularly for communities of color, who are wrongly and disproportionately subject to surveillance.

Mass surveillance programs have been adapted to routine policing matters and have served to dramatically enhance existing biases in policing against marginalized communities. Over 75% of warrantless searches conducted by US police under the auspices of the Patriot Act were for drug related offenses [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-s...

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#36

Post by spqr0a1 »

Ekaros wrote: post #22
kiba wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the topic of privacy, it is strange to see the ACLU speak against mass surveillance when they recently flip flopped on vaccine mandates, which are fundamentally about bodily autonomy and health privacy: I don't know why people argued for bodily autonomy when viruses don't care about bodily autonomy or who they infect. It would be one thing if a disease isn't infectious, but that's not how covid-19 works.

You have every right to protect yourself. I don't think police will stop you from wearing gas mask and bio hazard suite. As such you have every right and capability to protect yourself. Or just don't leave your own home. Simple. No need to force others to do something against their rights.

~40% of Americans live in states that have laws against wearing a mask in public spaces. Preventing people from protecting themselves is absolutely a live issue. http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#37

Post by newaccount2021 »

Retric wrote: post #31
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU has let the government increase surveillance, force mask usage, and now enforce vaccine usage across millions during the pandemic. They're staying silent because they agree with the policies - and you may too - but there is no denying that in terms of invasion of personal freedom it's very great and they're turning a blind eye to it.

The ACLU is a finite organization that needs to chose which battles to fight. Suggesting their not doing enough because they don’t prioritize your issues generally means you should be funding some other organization. https://www.eff.org/ for example may better fit your personal beliefs.

They found time to issue explicit statements of support for these measures

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#38

Post by Ekaros »

spqr0a1 wrote: post #36
Ekaros wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have every right to protect yourself. I don't think police will stop you from wearing gas mask and bio hazard suite. As such you have every right and capability to protect yourself. Or just don't leave your own home. Simple. No need to force others to do something against their rights.

~40% of Americans live in states that have laws against wearing a mask in public spaces. Preventing people from protecting themselves is absolutely a live issue. http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html

So maybe this is something that ACLU should take on. Actual civil liberty issue with states not protecting freedoms of people.

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#39

Post by slibhb »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #26
throwawaysea wrote: post #6

> Congress must ensure that the next generation of Americans is able to speak and associate freely This is a bit ironic considering that the ACLU has abandoned many of its principled civil liberties stances of the past, including defense of free speech, and mostly turned into a progressive political organization. Some articles covering this change at the ACLU: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.ht…

> ACLU officials similarly reject the implication that their support of COVID-vaccine mandates is inconsistent with the organization’s opposition to past immunization requirements. They argue that COVID-19 is a more infectious and deadlier virus than H1N1, and that the vaccines are better. “What is the risk to public health? How effective is the vaccine? What are the alternatives?” asked Allie Bohm, a policy counsel…

I agree that a vaccine mandate is reasonable at some point. As is martial law. But the death rate of covid is around 1% (and substantially less for young, healthy people). Given that death rate, I don't think a mandate is reasonable. Given a substantially higher death rate, I doubt one would be necessary.

The comparison to WWII is a little silly. We consider dying of viral infection to be an act of god, i.e. we do not hold people responsible for exhaling virons into "public air". If you want to question the wisdom of that judgement, consider that you quite possibly have been a link in a chain of infections that killed people. Does that make you a fraction of a murderer?

Re: The Privacy Lesson of 9/11: Mass Surveillance Is Not the Way Forward

#40

Post by fallingknife »

lavabiopsy wrote: post #27
fallingknife wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What rights do trans people not have?

At least in the US, there has been a flurry of anti-trans legislation passed in the last year: https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/anti-transgender-leg... And violence against trans people has also increased this year: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/14/us-trans-trans... Two years ago, many trans people were banned from serving in the US military. The ban was reversed earlier this year, but that's kind…

As much as I want the government to stay out of bathroom policies, there's no recognized right to use whatever bathroom you want. Nor is there any right to join the military.
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