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Andrew Yang to launch a third party

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Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#151

Post by UncleOxidant »

silisili wrote: post #109
UncleOxidant wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suppose the question ultimately will be whether his party pull more votes from Democrats or Republicans I think it's pretty clear that he'd pull more Dems than Reps. That would be a very bad thing in 2024, so you'll probably see a lot of encouragement from Republicans and an lot of discouragement from Democrats.

This is such a discouraging and sad view point. I'm not saying it's wrong, just pessimistic, and not blaming you for saying it just venting. Who cares if it's more x than y. Most voters are moderates. Myself, and many moderates, feel completely unrepresented by either side. Not liberal enough to vote D, and not conservative enough to vote R. You'd think they'd be drifting together, but increasingly are drifting furth…

Until we get some sort of ranked choice voting it will be this way.

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#152

Post by jeffreyrogers »

slothtrop wrote: post #25
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #4

Seems like you'd have better luck trying to capture the GOP than start another party. There is a large population of Republican voters that is not really "conservative", but just anti-Democrat. Someone who captured this base while remaining appealing to some moderates/independents would do quite well.

He appears popular with moderates and reactionaries to identity politics, but the share of supporters probably wouldn't be higher were he in the GOP, not to mention that his values / platform are staunchly Dem.

Does he want to win or does he want to remain ideologically pure? He can't have it both ways.

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#153

Post by silisili »

TomSwirly wrote: post #146
silisili wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a discouraging and sad view point. I'm not saying it's wrong, just pessimistic, and not blaming you for saying it just venting. Who cares if it's more x than y. Most voters are moderates. Myself, and many moderates, feel completely unrepresented by either side. Not liberal enough to vote D, and not conservative enough to vote R. You'd think they'd be drifting together, but increasingly are drifting furth…

> Not liberal enough to vote D, and not conservative enough to vote R. Is COVID a hoax? "Can't rightly say!" Does the climate emergency exist? "Some people say otherwise, it's none of my business." Should American women be allowed abortions? "I really have no opinion." Is Trump a delusional psychopath? "Can't see any difference between him and Biden!" Do these people really exist? ---- I moved to Europe in 2016, and…

I have little interest in debating politics, or being told how to vote, but I just wanted to reply to explain it's not like that here. Yes, some crazies exist on both sides. Perhaps more on the R side, probably, but I don't have the numbers.

The majority of both sides, yes even those scary evil republicans you speak of, are reasonable people. To paint one side by their best people, and another by their worst, is not an argument in good faith. I'm sorry whatever media you've consumed has misled you a bit.

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#154

Post by davidw »

dane-pgp wrote: post #85
davidw wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these systems are perfect. I lived in Italy for a number of years and... boy oh boy does proportional representation have its own series of problems. RCV seems like an attainable reform though, and better than the current system.

I've heard Italy used as such an example before, but wonder whether the problem could be mitigated by choosing a different proportional voting system. For example, elections for the Chamber of Deputies use closed party lists (whereas other countries manage with open lists, or no lists). Which political problems in Italy do you think would go away if they switched to a less proportional system? Wouldn't the same divis…

Some things I dislike about what I saw in Italy's system:

* It gives small parties disproportionate amounts of power at times: "do what we say or we leave the coalition and the government falls".

* It gives parties disproportionate power, since they pick the candidates on their lists.

* I think have a person represent a geographic area and be beholden to it has some benefits.

Mostly, it's the government stability problem, as lots of fractious parties, some of which are personal projects rather than longer-term movements just don't offer much continuity.

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#155

Post by slothtrop »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #152
slothtrop wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He appears popular with moderates and reactionaries to identity politics, but the share of supporters probably wouldn't be higher were he in the GOP, not to mention that his values / platform are staunchly Dem.

Does he want to win or does he want to remain ideologically pure? He can't have it both ways.

I don't think he was ever ideologically pure. But he still wants to be distinct.

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#156

Post by Ericson2314 »

davidw wrote: post #154
dane-pgp wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard Italy used as such an example before, but wonder whether the problem could be mitigated by choosing a different proportional voting system. For example, elections for the Chamber of Deputies use closed party lists (whereas other countries manage with open lists, or no lists). Which political problems in Italy do you think would go away if they switched to a less proportional system? Wouldn't the same divis…

Some things I dislike about what I saw in Italy's system: * It gives small parties disproportionate amounts of power at times: "do what we say or we leave the coalition and the government falls". * It gives parties disproportionate power, since they pick the candidates on their lists. * I think have a person represent a geographic area and be beholden to it has some benefits. Mostly, it's the government stability pro…

Replacing "Joe Manchin" with "small coalition partner" still sounds like an improvement :).

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#157

Post by davidw »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #156
davidw wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things I dislike about what I saw in Italy's system: * It gives small parties disproportionate amounts of power at times: "do what we say or we leave the coalition and the government falls". * It gives parties disproportionate power, since they pick the candidates on their lists. * I think have a person represent a geographic area and be beholden to it has some benefits. Mostly, it's the government stability pro…

Replacing "Joe Manchin" with "small coalition partner" still sounds like an improvement :).

The US has plenty of defects too. Not sure what really stands out as a good one to me that exists in the real world. Australia seems to have some good bits...but maybe that's just because I'm not familiar with it.

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#159

Post by kcplate »

geofft wrote: post #128
kcplate wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also advocated eliminating the minimum wage. Or in other words…he wanted to slaughter the hell out of one of the two DNC sacred cows. Can’t have that…radical ideas that aren’t party approved are bad

I mean, the party has to stand for something, otherwise it's not a party anymore. Imagine a Republican candidate who wanted to increase funding to Planned Parenthood and also repeal the Second Amendment. Both are defensible ideas, but if you want to be a presidential candidate with one of those ideas, the Republican Party is not for you. The Democrats are no different.

Sure, but if you are going to have a two party system that work together to disenfranchise any viable additional parties, having sacred cows ultimately hurt the country.

Re: Andrew Yang to launch a third party

#160

Post by Ericson2314 »

davidw wrote: post #157
Ericson2314 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing "Joe Manchin" with "small coalition partner" still sounds like an improvement :).

The US has plenty of defects too. Not sure what really stands out as a good one to me that exists in the real world. Australia seems to have some good bits...but maybe that's just because I'm not familiar with it.

Parliamentary systems with proportional representation, but the research does show they are better over all --- both theoretical and empirical. The situation in Italy is unfortunate, but I don't think it is a good reason for the US to rest on its laurels.
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