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OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

whitehouse.gov

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Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#901

Post by quacker »

captainredbeard wrote: post #11

Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? Preventing spread to other people is the only plausible reason to force everyone to take it. I am comfortable catching the disease and even comfortable dying from it (the numbers are vastly on my side). I do far riskier things on a regular basis (extreme sports) and I do not understand the infantilization of society. Join the feedlot if you want but I wi…

> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread?

"Why must I go the speed limit if it doesn't prevent an accident? Why wear a seat belt if it doesn't prevent injury? Why have airbags if they don't prevent death?"

There are no guarantees in life (death and taxes, notwithstanding). The bottom line is that vaccines significantly reduce spread.

> I am comfortable catching the disease and even comfortable dying from it (the numbers are vastly on my side)

The argument being that you have a slim chance of having a severe reaction to COVID?

You have an even slimmer chance of a severe reaction to a vaccine. Why not get vaccinated?

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#902

Post by angelzen »

xur17 wrote: post #829
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be consensus that the delta wave won't end until the US reaches at least 85% herd immunity (either through vaccination or infection). It's clear from polling that there is a large enough minority of American adults who won't take the vaccine voluntarily (under any circumstances) to achieve this level of immunity, so that leaves infection. Letting covid 'rip' through the remaining unvaccinated populatio…

I'm curious - of the folks that have not gotten vaccinated, do we have an idea of how many haven't gotten it because they strongly do not want to get it, and how many haven't gotten it for other less strong reasons (inability to get time off work, mixed signals from social media, etc)?

Vaccine protection seems to substantially diminish over time / virus evolution. Israel is boosting with third shot. UK August data shows same rate of infection vax/unvax for over 40s, and only half reduction in infection rate for under 40s. (Yeah, I know, severe infection protection is much better, so far). Pfizer CEO is on-record concerned about vaccine escape and ready to prepare new jabs on a 3 month notice.

Covid is here to stay. What is the long term plan? 'Boost' every 6 months with an ever changing cocktail that has not passed any clinical trials? In perpetuity? This is insanity.

I do not see any long term way out of covid pandemic other than natural immunity. Some studies have shown it is much stronger than vaccine protection. I hope they are right, or else the future is grim. Personally I really really hope that vax + mild infection works.

WE DO have a population for which natural immunity can be acquired at minimum cost: under 18s. For which the risk of covid death is ~1-2% of the already tiny risk of death from all other causes. Leave the kids alone.

What doesn't help: Messaging that so incredibly determined to pretend that natural immunity plays no role and that covid risk for a 10 year old is the same as covid risk for an 80 year old (in fact it is 1/1000).

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#903

Post by jasonlaramburu »

coryfklein wrote: post #897
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be consensus that the delta wave won't end until the US reaches at least 85% herd immunity (either through vaccination or infection). It's clear from polling that there is a large enough minority of American adults who won't take the vaccine voluntarily (under any circumstances) to achieve this level of immunity, so that leaves infection. Letting covid 'rip' through the remaining unvaccinated populatio…

> Letting covid 'rip' through the remaining unvaccinated population Aren't unvaccinated individuals the ones who made this decision? You may disagree with the conclusion of their dubious risk analyses, but if you choose not to get vaccinated then all bets are off. Or is it that the risk that the unvaccinated pose to the vaccinated are so high that they warrant strong arm solutions?

The more unvaccinated people there are, the more cases of severe covid there will be. This puts tremendous strain on the hospital system, and if they’re uninsured it means the taxpayers are covering the cost of their treatment. Rampant spread also promotes the emergence of new variants.It’s not only a personal decision— declining the shot negatively impacts your community, workplace and the country as a whole.

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#904

Post by jasonlaramburu »

a_conservative wrote: post #892
namlem wrote: post #887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are these vaccines not vaccines? Because they are based on mRNA rather than inactive viruses or virus fragments?

I'm not claiming that they aren't vaccines. Words change definition to follow usage. However, Merriam-Webster literally changed their definition of vaccine in the past 6 months or so. [0][1] My argument is that by including these injections under the term vaccine, they are getting a halo effect from past vaccines that isn't warranted. Questioning vaccines is the lowest of the low, almost unthinkable, but these "vacci…

The J&J vaccine is adenovirus. It’s the same class of vaccine as the flu shot we have had for decades. If you’re really concerned just take that one.

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#905

Post by jasonlaramburu »

angelzen wrote: post #902
xur17 wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious - of the folks that have not gotten vaccinated, do we have an idea of how many haven't gotten it because they strongly do not want to get it, and how many haven't gotten it for other less strong reasons (inability to get time off work, mixed signals from social media, etc)?

Vaccine protection seems to substantially diminish over time / virus evolution. Israel is boosting with third shot. UK August data shows same rate of infection vax/unvax for over 40s, and only half reduction in infection rate for under 40s. (Yeah, I know, severe infection protection is much better, so far). Pfizer CEO is on-record concerned about vaccine escape and ready to prepare new jabs on a 3 month notice. Covid…

> I do not see any long term way out of covid pandemic other than natural immunity.

We get annual boosters for many viruses. If you’re really hell bent on getting covid, your likelihood of severe illness is 10x less with at least one dose of the vaccine, and your immunity will be higher than infection alone. The messaging that natural immunity is the only way out, and that getting the virus is somehow ‘better’ than the vaccine is ludicrous.

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#906

Post by caeril »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #871
moistrobot wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number of comments here that fall back on some sort of a slippery slope argument, based in a worry about government overreach, is really disheartening. If COVID has proven anything in the US, it's how little control the federal government actually has. They've barely been able to enforce mask mandates. This is by design. We don't want a strong federal government. > The slippery slope argument doesn't hold water…

> > the pro-choice people seem to overlap heavily with the pro-mandate people. I don't think you can logically hold both of those positions Well, not from the "governments are either allowed or not allowed to tell people to do things" angle. From the "what do medical experts suggest we do to minimize unnecessary death and suffering" point of view it's possible to be consistently on the same side though.

It's definitely not consistent from the bodily autonomy angle, though. And that's a pretty major angle, considering how deeply we're connected with our bodies.

Personally, I think anybody who advocates for abrogation of bodily autonomy is an absolute monster, whether an anti-abortionist, a pro-vaccine-mandateist, or an anti-recreational-druggist.

Our bodies are all we have. This is the most important freedom we hold.

"If you want to keep this job you'll stick this needle in your arm" is no different, morally, from "If you want to keep this job you'll stick my dick in your mouth." And tens of thousands of HR departments tasked with preventing the latter will now rush to enforce the former. Absolutely disgusting.

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#907

Post by thenanyu »

coryfklein wrote: post #899
sterlind wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't have a COVID problem, we have a health problem. Has the government been encouraging people to take vitamin D, get fresh air, exercise, and get to a healthy weight? The rhetoric has been sit down and get the jab. I'm disabled and it's not my fault. I'm a healthy weight, I have a vegetarian diet high in vegetables, I do my rehab exercises every day and see the doctor frequently. And yet my condition is progr…

Would you advocate for government mandates on everyone else for your sole benefit? Or do you feel that you're a representative sample of the high-risk group?

There are many government mandates for the benefit of disabled people. We generally think this is ok.

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#908

Post by _-david-_ »

boplicity wrote: post #525
disneygibson wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think most people have an issue with voluntary vaccination. The problem is when nefarious actors use the situation to create a surveillance state, social credit system, and then exclude people from doing simple human things like eating at a restaurant. Australia is the future of the Western world.

> Surveillance state If that exists, it existed before COVID, and vaccinations against COVID certainly haven't changed that. > Social credit system Are you referring to mandates? These have been a thing, in the U.S., for many decades > exclude people from doing simple human things Vaccine mandates have excluded people from things far more important than restaurants, such as education, for many decades. This is not ne…

>If that exists, it existed before COVID, and vaccinations against COVID certainly haven't changed that.

Australia is taking it to the next level and using covid as an excuse. Do you believe that they will end their programs in 5 years when all of this is over?

>Are you referring to mandates? These have been a thing, in the U.S., for many decades

Vaccine passports are starting to be required to go to concerts, grocery stores, ball games, etc. If you do not do what the state wants you to do you will become a second class citizen with restrictions. This is similar to the social credit system in China.

>Vaccine mandates have excluded people from things far more important than restaurants, such as education, for many decades. This is not new to COVID.

No one is restricted from education. You can go to a private school or get an exemption.

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#909

Post by scohesc »

maxlybbert wrote: post #157
lalaland1125 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would employers need additional immunity? Do schools usually need legal immunity when they require vaccines?

Side effects from vaccines are rare, but do occasionally happen. Because of the small risk, there’s a government program to pay money to anybody who suffers a serious side effect from taking a vaccine in exchange for granting legal immunity to vaccine producers ( https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html ). So, to answer your question, schools don’t literally require legal immunity themselves, but they do…

1) How do you prove it was the vaccine that caused your side effects? You can't. It's not provable in court because "my legs went numb a day or two after I got the jab" isn't exactly concrete evidence.

2) No company should have their liability removed for any reason, especially by the government. This thinking was partly why the 2008 recession happened. I don't want the government taking on the liability of a multi-billion dollar industry because if the company messes up, we're paying more in taxes - guaranteed - to pay for all the settlements.

3) This mandate by the government violates every part of a right to personal autonomy when it comes to your health - there is a MONUMENTAL difference when the mandate comes from government as opposed to private business. This sets (further) precedence for future governments to give them carte blanche as to peoples' health.

Side note - Just a reminder that government-ran health systems like the NHS makes decisions about your health based on the status of the current system - meaning that people who are too costly to fix/repair/KEEP ALIVE will receive palliative care. That's disgusting to me. (The US healthcare system is a whole other topic entirely, this is just an example of government making bad decisions regarding your health)

Re: OSHA to require employers with 100 employees vaccinate or test workforce

#910

Post by iammisc »

caeril wrote: post #906
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > the pro-choice people seem to overlap heavily with the pro-mandate people. I don't think you can logically hold both of those positions Well, not from the "governments are either allowed or not allowed to tell people to do things" angle. From the "what do medical experts suggest we do to minimize unnecessary death and suffering" point of view it's possible to be consistently on the same side though.

It's definitely not consistent from the bodily autonomy angle, though. And that's a pretty major angle, considering how deeply we're connected with our bodies. Personally, I think anybody who advocates for abrogation of bodily autonomy is an absolute monster, whether an anti-abortionist, a pro-vaccine-mandateist, or an anti-recreational-druggist. Our bodies are all we have. This is the most important freedom we hold.…

There's a difference between asking people to do something and asking them to do nothing though. In general, bodily autonomy is important and this the best abortion defense in my opinion as an anti abortionist.
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