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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#421

Post by throwaway210222 »

stickfigure wrote: post #170
yuy910616 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really reminds me of the Taiwan election commercial that compares Taiwan and Hong Kong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcVIQMrc4A

Honest question: Why not just give Taiwan nukes? MAD seems to be a very effective peace strategy. China already has nukes. Seems the essential missing ingredient is the 'M'.

> Honest question: Why not just give Taiwan nukes?

Fair question, here's at least one answer:

1. that's a violation of the non-profileration treaty and the USA and the West basing its entire legitimacy on the rule of law. Values and all that.

See how far student-union whataboutism gets you once you do that.

2. because nukes are counter-productive: you cannot fire one nuke - you have to fire them all. The second Russia sees the nuclear flashes from US assets, ALL of their nukes start flying.

Unless you think Putin is going to wait to see exactly where in Asia hundred of thermonuclear ICBMs are aimed at.

And the first to land will be in Berlin, Tokyo, Paris, London, Amsterdam, Rome, Jerusalem, Sydney, Toronto [1]. (Before you press the down-vote, take the time to investigate the Sampson Option in orthodox MAD nuclear deterrence).

And that is not counting the Chinese nuclear response.

Childhood fanstasies.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#422

Post by Bayart »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #279
kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

>It elected a first female president in Taiwan, allowed gay marriage...etc

It's a trap to equate "progressive" social change with democracy. It's perfectly possible to have a socially liberal society that's also very authoritarian. In fact the Western world is going in that direction.

The rule of law is a better example of an artifact of democracy.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#423

Post by tluyben2 »

blkhp19 wrote: post #415
justicezyx wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wasn't part of China HK was sold to Britain as part of the corrupted and weak China's humiliation. What do you want to say? Are you trying to depict the image that HK has been forcefully claimed by China? Please stop this type of propaganda behavior. I don't like CCP, but that does not make HK not part of China. We Chinese eventually will get rid of CCP, but we don't want the great nation get split. Just like an…

Who cares what it was / wasn't part of. The majority of people in HK don't want to be part of China. That's all that matters. > We Chinese eventually will get rid of CCP, but we don't want the great nation get split. Dude, what? HK hasn't been part of China for years. What possible justification could you have for re-integrating it. This isn't about preventing a split, this is about undoing a split, and destroying a…

> Who cares what it was / wasn't part of

You can wipe it away like that, but it is the entire point of Chinese leadership since a long time, even opposing parties, that what once was China will be China again. So the 'who cares' is the vital point in why they are doing this; they care very much, not about the pieces of land or the people, but just the simple fact that they consider it China because it was taken from them (and they always said they will get it back) no matter who say they own it now (Taiwan is not uniformly recognised as a state). And I believe many (majority?) on the mainland agree with this, even if they don't agree with the CCP.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#424

Post by thaumasiotes »

Bayart wrote: post #419
thaumasiotes wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a bit younger than Linear B, Old Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit. So in terms of a traceable, continuous culture China is at the fourth place of so. Linear B does not represent a traceable, continuous culture. Neither does Old Avestan.

How so ? There's a case to be made for Linear B because of the Greek Dark Ages, but Old Avestan ? By that same token, Oracle Bone Script also doesn't represent a traceable and continuous culture.

Persia was conquered by iconoclastic foreigners. Many native traditions were lost, even the knowledge of how to read the old writings. Continuity was significantly interrupted.

> There's a case to be made for Linear B because of the Greek Dark Ages

That's sufficient to defeat the claim of cultural continuity, but note also that the case that Linear B has been deciphered at all isn't on the firmest ground.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#425

Post by ilaksh »

nradov wrote: post #273
tw04 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the latest war game was based on a Chinese biological-weapon attack that swept through US bases and warships in the Indo-Pacific region more than a decade in the future If China starts a war by releasing a biological weapon, Taiwan will be the least of their concerns. I don't see any scenario in which every Western and neutral nation on Earth doesn't turn against them. Maybe Russia helps, but I doubt it.

If such a weapon were to be used it would probably be done covertly with plausible deniability. Maybe a false flag operation.

Hmm. Hard to imagine. Nothing remotely similar has ever happened. But, now that I think of it, the consequence might be something like a pandemic, which coincidentally we are in now.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#426

Post by account42 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #289
nullc wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What on earth is this supposed to mean? The Republic of China was the government of China from 1912 until 1949 when it was overthrown by the CCP and retreated to Taiwan. Until at least 1971 the UN recognized it as the legitimate government of all of China. The poster's comment is outdated, but that's the historical background -- and why it's less crazy than you might have assumed without knowing the history.

I remember my mind being blown when I read about internal Taiwanese politics and learned that both parties are more or less anti-independence. The liberals / doves think it would provoke China, and be too high a price to pay for something that's already de facto truth. But the conservatives / hawks argue against it because they deny the legitimacy of the PRC, so why would Taiwan need to declare it's independence from…

> The liberals / doves think it would provoke China, and be too high a price to pay for something that's already de facto truth.

This does not make them anti-independence, just not suicidal.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#427

Post by account42 »

nradov wrote: post #277
yann2 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piece by piece sounds good. But after Xi and the rest of the old men who run the country kick the can, I find it hard to believe next gen Chinese leaders will care about Taiwan as much. Whats the upside to them for all this drama?

The drama serves as a useful tool to unify the domestic populace against an external enemy and distract them from CCP corruption.

If that is the primary reason, then at least actually invading Taiwan is not in their interest since it would remove that tool.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#428

Post by krageon »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #279
kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

Of course there are places, they'll just be outside of China.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#429

Post by krageon »

blkhp19 wrote: post #415
justicezyx wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wasn't part of China HK was sold to Britain as part of the corrupted and weak China's humiliation. What do you want to say? Are you trying to depict the image that HK has been forcefully claimed by China? Please stop this type of propaganda behavior. I don't like CCP, but that does not make HK not part of China. We Chinese eventually will get rid of CCP, but we don't want the great nation get split. Just like an…

Who cares what it was / wasn't part of. The majority of people in HK don't want to be part of China. That's all that matters. > We Chinese eventually will get rid of CCP, but we don't want the great nation get split. Dude, what? HK hasn't been part of China for years. What possible justification could you have for re-integrating it. This isn't about preventing a split, this is about undoing a split, and destroying a…

> HK hasn't been part of China for years

HK was always a part of China, just under specific rules.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#430

Post by academia_hack »

Causality1 wrote: post #290

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students som…

This is only half true. Many of my Chinese friends, especially affluent ones who have spent time abroad, both know and hate what Xi is doing to their country. Behind closed doors and or while walking in parks in Shanghai and Beijing I've spoken with people who still mourn friends lost in Tiananmen, who found Xi's removal of term limits deeply unsettling, and who dream of religious freedom in Tibet and Xinjiang.

China is full of a great many intelligent and aware people who are working hard to reclaim their country. Lots of the most progressive folks I know are working within the government, making day-to-day decisions as low level bureaucrats to dull the sharp edge of totalitarianism wherever they can.

Perhaps a modest number of Chinese people genuinely don't care much for anything other than stability and profit. However, the heart of China still beats for independence and many good people are waiting for their chance to reclaim the country.

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