Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 538 posts

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#371

Post by nl »

jollybean wrote: post #350
nl wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are radically underestimating the soft power China has in Asia. Countries like Vietnam and the Philippines are far from Chinese allies, but have little faith in US commitment to the region and have to survive in the region. There's probably a number of people in leadership positions in the region who accept the realpolitik that is isn't worth fighting China over Taiwan. > Americans do not rollover when th…

Your point about Vietnam and Philippines wavering on direct conflict is well taken but I did hint at that. I didn't say 'they would be going to war over Taiwan' - I would agree with you there there. In the geopolitical realignment, they'd be in a difficult situation, and though they might not join the Asian NATO, they'd join the new Trade Pact. Neither Sweden nor Finland nor Austria belong to NATO either, but there's…

> I don't know what you mean. 9/11 resulted in two major wars and that was a non-state actor.

As I said elsewhere: In the last few years the US has been run out of Iraq by Iran, Syria by Russia and Afghanistan by the Taliban. I don't see much appetite for going back to any of those.

Or more starkly: The US lost both those wars and the US population is sick of it.

If China sank a couple of US ships, I'm sure the US would declare war. But China would be 100% committed to winning an invasion of Taiwan, no matter what the cost.

The US.. not so much.

> Japan, S. Korea, India would, and that's the start of a fairly powerful coalition - some of which would probably engage the Chinese Navy in S. China sea, and maybe be involved in blockades.

Note that none of these countries have every said they would defend Taiwan in the event of an invasion. That's statement is conspicuously absent from anyone at all, actually.

As for a blockade, I think you are - again - overestimating support Taiwan has, and underestimating the realpolitik that would happen.

Where are the blockades over Chinese behaviour in Hong Kong? Or diplomatic protests? Or...anything at all other than newspaper articles?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#372

Post by iheartlife »

stingrae wrote: post #53
Gray0Ed wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sponsor relocation to US/UK/Taiwan for any HK citizen who wants it? HK will have 0 value to China if every educated person leaves it.

HK doesn't really have value to China other than making the case to its population that it never stands down or loses. Economically HK isn't that big of a deal compared to the rest of China at this point.

Thats an incredibly simplified take on it. HK might not represent a large part of the chinese economy but it still facilitates a large part of foreign investment into chinese companies.

In CN there are largely three types of listings A shares, B shares and H shares. A & B are listed on SZ and SH exchange and are not freely traded like you know it from the west. H shares are listed on HK exchange and are freely traded using the Hong Kong Dollar.

This is why companies like Tencent are dual listed on Shanghai and Hong Kong exchange, to facilitate foreign investment that wouldnt be possible in the same way if Tencent was only listed as B class on Shanghai exchange.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#373

Post by tablespoon »

winrid wrote: post #366
benrbray wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I have an otherwise quite reasonable friend whose stance on Xinjiang province is: "The camps aren't real, it's just an exaggeration. And if they're real, it's because the Xinjiang people are there voluntarily. And if they're not there voluntarily, it's probably better anyway, since it would be a really bad thing long-term to have a large minority of people that is not culturally united with the rest of China.…

How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? I can say that at least, it's hard not to be surprised by such opinions. I've been to Xinjiang and know people that live there. Pretty sure you could live your whole life without seeing said camps. I also know people that have had family members die from attacks from the Uighurs. If real, I suspect the CCP started the camps after the terrorist attacks - if yo…

> How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence?

Because if they're right, there's no way to know anything about the world. Even the PRC government now admits the camps exist, and their propaganda approach has moved on from outright denial to other tactics.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#374

Post by inglor_cz »

howaboutnope wrote: post #347
rmujica wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

turned out alright for Afghanistan

Turned out alright for Nazi Germany. As a German, I'm absolutely grateful the Nazis were crushed militarily, rather than, you know, still reigning.

A question out of curiosity: would you prefer DDR to be crushed militarily as well, instead of just giving up the ghost in 1989?

As a fellow European, I can see that communists are somehow still considered better than the Nazis, and part of the difference might be that their gulags were never conquered by an external force and photos of their skeletal prisoners never made it to the media. They mostly dismantled them themselves once Stalin was dead and the regimes behind the Iron Curtain turned from outright murderous to just oppressive.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#375

Post by nl »

anonymousiam wrote: post #234
nl wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect his argument is that the former national government of mainland China fled to Taiwan during the revolution. This is true, but it doesn't make a strong argument for legitimacy. Former governments flee countries frequently, and unless there is a rapidly implemented plan to try to get them back into power they are generally ignored. Taiwan is better viewed as a breakaway state than having any legitimate stake i…

One could even argue that the agreement Great Britain had for the 100 year lease of Hong Kong was with the Nationalist (Taiwan) government and not the PRC.

> the agreement Great Britain had for the 100 year lease of Hong Kong was with the Nationalist (Taiwan) government and not the PRC

This appears to be a difficult argument to make in a consistent way. HK was ceded to GB a the Treaty of Nanking[1] which was between the UK and the Qing Dynasty Chinese government. It was later expanded in 1897, again with the Qing Dynasty.

That Dynasty collapsed in the early 20th century. That was followed by the warlord era, and then the nationalist government in the 1930s. That lasted until defeated by the Communist government in 1949.

So there were only around 20 years the Nationalist government governed mainland China, and it was long after the treaty ceding HK.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nanking

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#376

Post by divbzero »

seibelj wrote: post #328
analyst74 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's partly due Chinese brainwashing, and partly due to American brainwashing. Imagine whenever an American expat talks to a foreigner, which happens daily, someone mentions racism in US. Very soon people will get really sick and tired of hearing about it, and will emotionally deny/downplay its existence.

What’s funny is the most racist interactions I have had in professional situations were with Chinese businessmen. China is exceptionally racist. But they do try to cudgel America with it repeatedly.

I think this is true for many places around the world: where racism is just as serious or more so than in the US, but racism appears more prominent in the US because the issue has been dealt with more head on.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#377

Post by winrid »

tablespoon wrote: post #373
winrid wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? I can say that at least, it's hard not to be surprised by such opinions. I've been to Xinjiang and know people that live there. Pretty sure you could live your whole life without seeing said camps. I also know people that have had family members die from attacks from the Uighurs. If real, I suspect the CCP started the camps after the terrorist attacks - if yo…

> How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? Because if they're right, there's no way to know anything about the world. Even the PRC government now admits the camps exist, and their propaganda approach has moved on from outright denial to other tactics.

> Even the PRC government now admits the camps exist

Oh neat, I missed that.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/...

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#378

Post by davesque »

kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

Hong Kong seems really like a canary in a coal mine. Shouldn't it be easy for any of the world's democracies to speak out for such a small territory that is being threatened by a dictatorship? Apparently not in this sad era of decline. I swear I can feel it in the air. Principles are seeming more and more old fashioned. Money trumps all.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#379

Post by hker »

JackeJR wrote: post #356
MangoCoffee wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

Some think that if the US extended their protection to Taiwan, Beijing would not attempt to take Taiwan. Let's just assume for a moment that the US will fight off attacks by China to take Taiwan. And that US successfully ward off an attack. What next? What is there to prevent China from trying again and again and again? Will the US be prepared to ward off attacks after attacks after attacks? This is unlikely to happe…

> Some think that if the US extended their protection to Taiwan, Beijing would not attempt to take Taiwan.

> What next? What is there to prevent China from trying again and again and again?

> The only way the regime can be changed is from the inside.

Worth noting that the Chinese Army “may not be willing to fight” (‘pay the bill’ for the aggressive stance of the Foreign Ministry). [1]

If the Chinese Army did not score decisive victories early on, they may be the one to give up, pushing back pressure from the top, instead of trying again and again.

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/p0nqla/chinese...

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#380

Post by [deleted] »

benrbray wrote: post #330
Causality1 wrote: post #290

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students som…

Indeed. I have an otherwise quite reasonable friend whose stance on Xinjiang province is: "The camps aren't real, it's just an exaggeration. And if they're real, it's because the Xinjiang people are there voluntarily. And if they're not there voluntarily, it's probably better anyway, since it would be a really bad thing long-term to have a large minority of people that is not culturally united with the rest of China.…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN