Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 538 posts

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#321

Post by pcurve »

SimeVidas wrote: post #19

How much longer does China plan to keep this event taboo?

probably until the current communist party loses its grip. Currently, it's sort of a federated dictatorship.

They see what S.Korea has gone through in being a full democracy, taking lessons from it to ensure it doesn't happen there.

S.Korea is a free society now, but even as a 40 something guy, I remember days of militaristic regime holdovers from quasi dictatorship of the past.

You couldn't criticize the president, the press was closely monitored, no one dare expose rampant corruption and collusion of big business and prosecution office.

I remember my neighbor skipping classes to demonstrate against the government, throwing Molotov cocktails.

Some people got whisked away and put into labor camp, not to be seen again for months or not make it out alive.

Where is China on the timeline? They're probably currently at where Korea was in early 1970s. But they also know that the timeline now is far more compressed in modern society and change could happen much quicker.

All the the actions you're seeing from China, is done out of fear of losing grip.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#322

Post by seanmcdirmid »

stickfigure wrote: post #170
yuy910616 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really reminds me of the Taiwan election commercial that compares Taiwan and Hong Kong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcVIQMrc4A

Honest question: Why not just give Taiwan nukes? MAD seems to be a very effective peace strategy. China already has nukes. Seems the essential missing ingredient is the 'M'.

Both Taiwan and Japan are known to be capable of fielding nukes but do not because it would inflame tensions in the region and the USA has implicitly guaranteed to back them with an existing MAD solution. If the USA withdrew from east Asia, both Taiwan and Japan would probably start producing nuclear weapons within a few months (or before the USA had left if given a head’s up).

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#323

Post by seanmcdirmid »

yyyk wrote: post #229
stickfigure wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why not just give Taiwan nukes? MAD seems to be a very effective peace strategy. China already has nukes. Seems the essential missing ingredient is the 'M'.

Even putting the proliferation issue aside, a Taiwan nuke program just won't deter China, will merely justify an invasion. This may have worked - in the sense of deterring PRC - 30 or more likely 40 years ago, when their army was much weaker. It's far too late to think about that now.

I agree. The biggest issue for Taiwan would be war head delivery. They can nuke a few cities in fujian, but the communist party has never fully trusted Fujian anyways and wouldn’t see it as a great loss, let alone a deter it from turning the island into a waste land rock.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#324

Post by howaboutnope »

nradov wrote: post #265
Aeolun wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but trying to claim it is illegitimate seems a pretty big stretch. That’s exactly what the Chinese government is doing though. Isn’t that a bit of a stretch too? China claims Taiwan just as Taiwan (more or less seriously, but I doubt with any will to ever try and recover it) claims China. Or more like they both claim to be the legitimate government of greater China.

Possession counts for a lot more than theoretical legal legitimacy. Who is physically in control of the bulk of Chinese territory?

> Possession counts for a lot more than theoretical legal legitimacy.

So in your mind, the act of murder "counts for a lot more" [0] than someone's right to their own life, and theft does not exist, since whoever possesses something owns it?

[0] What's the unit we're counting in? How do you "count" intellectual integrity or moral character?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#325

Post by goatsi »

sudosysgen wrote: post #316
simonh wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If China invaded Taiwan, Europe would stand together with the US on any retaliation. It would be the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait all over again, geopolitically. China would be cut off dead from the global economy, no matter the cost. I don’t think it would be practical to liberate Taiwan, but China would be ruined.

China is not Iraq. It's insane to compare the two. Europe was okay with the first invasion of Iraq because they frankly had very little to lose and a lot to gain. Meanwhile suiciding the EU economy by cutting off Chinese exports would hurt the EU a lot more than it would hurt China and certainly much more than the invasion of Kuwait. In any case I'd recommend reading what Chinese generals write on the subject. For th…

>China is the only country in the world that produces everything it needs for daily operations, without a single exception, in one way or another.

Tell me what I'm missing about their domestic oil industry then, because everything else I'm reading tells me they need to import around 10 million barrels of crude oil a day (primarily to produce gasoline and diesel, so it's very hard to substitute).

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#326

Post by coliveira »

ranger207 wrote: post #212
gogopuppygogo wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA has been losing all war games where it defends Tawain against China. https://nypost.com/2021/03/11/us-war-games-over-china-threat... It is not okay to assume USA supremacy against adversaries anymore. Why Americans still do business with China is astounding to me.

Wargames are designed to be lost. It's not as useful to say "welp we stomped all over them" as it is to push the forces being tested further and further until they break, then fixing or compensating where it broke and pushing even further. Wargames aren't constrained by reality, and the game's opposing force may be more powerful than in reality. Just hearing that the US lost a wargame doesn't mean anything without kn…

Similar words were said right before the invasion of Afghanistan... Now we see the folly of foreign invasion.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#327

Post by analyst74 »

billiam wrote: post #228

Heartbreaking. I can't even talk about Tiananmen with Chinese -born friends under 40 in the US or Europe. TikTok and WeChat has achieved their goals of driving historical memory from their brains. And if I even mention Taiwan within seconds I am hearing the term "renegade province." It seems for now possible to create a true virtual totalitarian state in the 21st century. It's chains are forged out of "Xi thought" ap…

It's partly due Chinese brainwashing, and partly due to American brainwashing.

Imagine whenever an American expat talks to a foreigner, which happens daily, someone mentions racism in US. Very soon people will get really sick and tired of hearing about it, and will emotionally deny/downplay its existence.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#328

Post by seibelj »

analyst74 wrote: post #327
billiam wrote: post #228

Heartbreaking. I can't even talk about Tiananmen with Chinese -born friends under 40 in the US or Europe. TikTok and WeChat has achieved their goals of driving historical memory from their brains. And if I even mention Taiwan within seconds I am hearing the term "renegade province." It seems for now possible to create a true virtual totalitarian state in the 21st century. It's chains are forged out of "Xi thought" ap…

It's partly due Chinese brainwashing, and partly due to American brainwashing. Imagine whenever an American expat talks to a foreigner, which happens daily, someone mentions racism in US. Very soon people will get really sick and tired of hearing about it, and will emotionally deny/downplay its existence.

What’s funny is the most racist interactions I have had in professional situations were with Chinese businessmen. China is exceptionally racist. But they do try to cudgel America with it repeatedly.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#329

Post by Waterluvian »

Causality1 wrote: post #290

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students som…

Indeed.

Look at how much China has evolved since WWII and you can see how many could believe that the ends justify the means.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#330

Post by benrbray »

Causality1 wrote: post #290

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students som…

Indeed. I have an otherwise quite reasonable friend whose stance on Xinjiang province is:

"The camps aren't real, it's just an exaggeration. And if they're real, it's because the Xinjiang people are there voluntarily. And if they're not there voluntarily, it's probably better anyway, since it would be a really bad thing long-term to have a large minority of people that is not culturally united with the rest of China. It's not pretty but it's for the common good."

Post reply on HN