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A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

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Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#71

Post by paranoidrobot »

cercatrova wrote: post #50

Reading things like these in other (even developed, Western) nations: - UK surveillance state powers, anti-porn laws - Australian laws to detain you, break encryption - This German incident I sure am glad to live in a country where freedoms are explicitly guaranteed by a constitutional decree.

> I sure am glad to live in a country where freedoms are explicitly guaranteed by a constitutional decree.

I can only assume you're referring to the US's Constitution.

Rights that are apparently guaranteed by the US Constitution are routinely ignored by all levels of US Government.

You may get your day in court, you may even have the court rule in your favour. That does not mean you're made whole, or that the government will back down and stop doing things that infringe upon your rights.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#72

Post by zepto »

lmm wrote: post #45
tomschlick wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which country do you have the best chance of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in? Judging by immigration numbers, the US.

Germany has a higher proportion of immigrants than the US, so how do you figure that?

Only counting new immigrants over a very short recent period.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#73

Post by selcuka »

jdavis703 wrote: post #17
jimmaswell wrote: post #7

And as an American, Germans/Australians/etc. will still insist they're more free than me because of something arbitrary like free healthcare. I don't think there's anywhere I'd feel particularly more "free" all things considered aside from maybe Mars.

It’s possible for a democratic political system to exist, and still prohibit insulting politicians. It’s quite possible to criticize any politician without resulting to ad hominem attacks. Even the former US Vice President Dick Cheney nearly faced consequences for violating senate rules by telling a senator to “go f___ himself.”

> Even the former US Vice President Dick Cheney nearly faced consequences

But everyone else called him a "pimmel" with no consequences at all.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#74

Post by esyir »

kiawe_fire wrote: post #57
lmm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the one-party-ness doesn't actually affect anyone living there, then yes. Most of us would say that the problems with one-party states are not limited to the tiny minority of people who would want to start a new political party, but also has a large effect on people who disagree with government policies but have no representation.

Right. People presumably don’t start political movements because they’re happy. They typically do so to affect change. Change that may well be required, for example, to address problems in said one-party healthcare system.

I Find this definition of freedom mind boggling. By that logic, brave new world describes a free society.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#75

Post by girvo »

cercatrova wrote: post #50

Reading things like these in other (even developed, Western) nations: - UK surveillance state powers, anti-porn laws - Australian laws to detain you, break encryption - This German incident I sure am glad to live in a country where freedoms are explicitly guaranteed by a constitutional decree.

Which is at the mercy of interpretation from the court; we must always be vigilant and be ready to agitate against this becoming common, as your constitution doesn’t actually guarantee anything: humans are still the ones who run and decide things. The constitution isn’t the silicon American society runs on, it’s more firmware, to use a shitty analogy.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#77

Post by marcod »

zepto wrote: post #60
simonh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it depends how you look at it. There are different kinds of freedom. My main concern in the US is the absurd levels of incarceration over there, often for relatively trivial nonviolent offences that aren’t even crimes in many countries, and the politicisation of the judicial system. I’m a lot more confident I’d get fair treatment from the justice system in most European countries than I would in the US. The…

> The relationship between the police and the public in the states also seems dangerously adversarial and does not inspire me with confidence. This is greatly exaggerated. Not that the bad things you see in the news don’t happen. Just that most interactions with the police aren’t in fact any more adversarial than in other countries. I am not white, and I have been stopped by police multiple times in the US, Europe, a…

Not saying your anecdote isn't true, but the data in the US, speaks a pretty clear language.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/young-black-adults-less-... https://www.kff.org/racial-equity-and-health-policy/press-re... https://www.statista.com/chart/21872/map-of-police-violence-...

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#78

Post by jdavis703 »

technothrasher wrote: post #24
jdavis703 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s possible for a democratic political system to exist, and still prohibit insulting politicians. It’s quite possible to criticize any politician without resulting to ad hominem attacks. Even the former US Vice President Dick Cheney nearly faced consequences for violating senate rules by telling a senator to “go f___ himself.”

Are you talking about Cheney swearing at Durban? I don't recall him facing any consequences. All I remember is some pearl clutching about it and then nothing else. I don't think he even broke any senate rules, as the senate was not in session at the time he swore. Since then, public swearing and insults by US politicians seems to have only increased.

There was some tut tutting about the VP technically being a senator since the VP casts tie-breaking senate votes. But I don’t think it went anywhere serious. Anyways, it later turned out the VP is allowed to shoot people without consequences too, so it seems VPs are given a certain amount of immunity. Point is, there are rules on political speech, but it doesn’t have to quell political debate.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#79

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

tomschlick wrote: post #69
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because as an American you put the border at physical violence but think verbal violence doesn't matter. You see that as freedom. I see it as a lack of culture. Far more than an ocean separates these two continents. Note that it is entirely play pretend anyway. I know for a fact that I can actually say and do far more here than the American society would tolerate in the USA.

Because the line of physical violence is pretty clear cut. The line at which someone gets offended is not and can vary drastically depending on the person, religion, current events, etc. Laws need clear definitions.

Insulting someone has an actual definition. It is not about being offended.

Re: A Twitter user insulted a German politician, then police raided his house

#80

Post by kiawe_fire »

To be fair, in the last 4 years especially, the US has set its own precedent of raiding the homes of political opponents, supporters and even lawyers.

In one case last year, a person was even visited by officers for simply saying a politician’s rhetoric was “underwhelming”.

To say nothing of the peaceful protestors who have been detained, in some cases without charges or even access to lawyers.

We may like to think we’re still the bastion of freedom we want to see, but the trend certainly doesn’t point that way.

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