Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 538 posts

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#241

Post by cma »

hker wrote: post #161
TimTheTinker wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. That would be the best thing that ever happened to the rest of the world, and to Chinese citizens as well. China has long abused its citizens to undercut global prices on manufactured goods. Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison); and wages for factory wo…

> In the early 1930s, the USSR survived by shipping so much grain out of Ukraine that by 1933, 25% of the Ukrainian populace had died. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes always abuse people one way or another to survive. During the Great Leap Forward around 1958-1962, an estimated 15 to 55 millions died in China due to famine, while China was still a net exporter of grain (to Cuba and Africa). Another data point…

Ireland was a net exporter of food during the potato famine, from appeals to laissez-faire capitalism.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#243

Post by tkojames »

quickthrowman wrote: post #197
asdff wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's arsenal is almost a full order of magnitude smaller than just what the US has currently deployed and ready for launch (not counting the rest of the stockpile which is like 4x the size). We have enough weaponry to completely overwhelm their defenses. China does not.

“ Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.” -General Buck Turgidson, Dr Strangelove Here it is in video form, watch it so you can see how ridiculous your idea is: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HgyjlqhiTV8

The blueray 4k they released for Dr Strangelove looks amazing. Highly recommend watching it.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#244

Post by nl »

dkislyuk wrote: post #199
nl wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear proliferation is a bigger concern than a Chinese takeover of Taiwan. If the US gives nukes to Taiwan, what would stop China giving nukes to eg Venezuela (or whatever South or Central American nation the US doesn't like that month). Edit: previously I wrote "If the US gives nukes to China". I meant Taiwan here of course.

What? China is already a nuclear power with nuclear weapons, and has been for decades. The question posed by the parent is arming Taiwan to defend itself.

Yes, I meant "If the US gives nukes to Taiwan" of course (previously wrote China here).

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#245

Post by mr_toad »

refenestrator wrote: post #143
tablespoon wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. And the alternative might have been "let the Soviets win." That choice would have definitely been a way to avoid war and achieve a kind of "peace."

What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in…

> Absolutely nothing, that's what.

Hundreds of thousands were massacred by the Viet Cong after the US left, and hundreds of thousands more died in the ensuing refugee crisis.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#246

Post by vkou »

gibolt wrote: post #32
hunterb123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communist China has only had a mere 100 years compared to it's 5000 year history.

Not sure why you are being downvoted. During the communist revolution (in the 40s), the previous government was overthrown and escaped to Taiwan. That was when Mao and Communism took over. It is an interesting perspective Edited for accuracy, 'cultural' -> 'communist'

> Not sure why you are being downvoted. During the communist revolution (in the 40s), the previous government was overthrown and escaped to Taiwan.

Incorrect. The previous government of China (the Beiyang government) was overthrown by a collaboration between the CPC and the KMT (Which was led by Chiang Kai-shek).

The CPC and the KMT then had a war, which the KMT lost - and fled to Taiwan.

As a bonus, the KMT then proceeded to carry out the White Terror - 38 years of one-party rule, repression and martial law, which ostensibly purged Taiwan's of suspected or alleged communists.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#247

Post by xnyan »

systemvoltage wrote: post #218
xnyan wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step back and just think about it in realpolitik terms. If you were the leader of china, what would you think about the idea of nuclear weapons being brought to your borders? In a similar situation (the US had nukes in turkey and other areas close to the USSR) the Soviet Union used the same rational (in part) to justify putting nukes in Cuba. Just leveling the playing field. The result was the closest we’ve ever gott…

India, North Korea, Pakistan and Russia are all bordering nations to China with nuclear weapons. During the cold war and to this day, there are no bordering states or any one close to 3000 miles of US borders with nuclear weapons. So, your comparison to US/USSR cold war to China/Taiwan scenario is slightly misplaced I think.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think you’re really giving it a good faith effort to look at this from the eyes of China.

Imagine it in your head: the senior intelligence officer walks into the briefing room and says “The United States has placed their nuclear missiles in Taiwan, but don’t worry - that’s exactly the same as Russia having missiles, or India having done some nuclear tests and maybe having a shitty delivery system that’s 1/100 as advanced as the US. No cause for concern. Nothing has changed.”

It’s a wholly unrealistic analysis that does not even pass a cursory sniff test. The United States of America putting their nuclear warheads in Taipei, a region they consider to be stolen from them with the support of western power, would be taken as a unique and massive escalation of hostilities because it would be, they would be stupid not to consider it as such.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#248

Post by mLuby »

jollybean wrote: post #205
gogopuppygogo wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA has been losing all war games where it defends Tawain against China. https://nypost.com/2021/03/11/us-war-games-over-china-threat... It is not okay to assume USA supremacy against adversaries anymore. Why Americans still do business with China is astounding to me.

1) "Last fall, the latest war game was based on a Chinese biological-weapon attack that swept through US bases and warships in the Indo-Pacific region" These are superfluous conditions (i.e. predicting bioweapons), and of course, and you're not going to hear about the 'real' results. And of course it ignores the after effects. 2) Defenders have considerable advantage in that situation, especially with a water gap. Th…

2) A giant smokescreen? Creeping (missile) barrage of the beach? There are plenty of ways to make it hard to target anything on a beach. Air cover and missile defense will be a big deal.

3) You mean the civilian population will fight to the death? Absolutely no way that's true. Russia showed the way in Crimea: offer incentives to those who support the "liberation"; it both erodes defender support and gives the attackers more legitimacy.

5) Headlines for days, sure, but recently the West has shown that its "red lines" are more crossable than they might appear.

If the PRC ever manages to take even momentary control of Taiwan, there's no way they let it slip away again. And remember that the ocean supply lines heavily favor China over the US (even from Japan or South Korea) for any sort of protracted conflict. The only wild card is nuclear weapons, and all we can do is hope that neither side is insane enough to use them, "tactically" or "strategically."

Pacific NATO was called SEATO. We might be surprised at how few committed and capable allies we'd have. It'd be in most countries' interest to stay neutral in an uncertain war between the current and future economic superpowers. I'd also wager that there'll be much less domestic support for sending hundreds of thousands of Americans to die over Taiwan than there was as a response to Pearl Harbor.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#249

Post by [deleted] »

mr_toad wrote: post #245
refenestrator wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in…

> Absolutely nothing, that's what. Hundreds of thousands were massacred by the Viet Cong after the US left, and hundreds of thousands more died in the ensuing refugee crisis.

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#250

Post by [deleted] »

xnyan wrote: post #247
systemvoltage wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India, North Korea, Pakistan and Russia are all bordering nations to China with nuclear weapons. During the cold war and to this day, there are no bordering states or any one close to 3000 miles of US borders with nuclear weapons. So, your comparison to US/USSR cold war to China/Taiwan scenario is slightly misplaced I think.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think you’re really giving it a good faith effort to look at this from the eyes of China. Imagine it in your head: the senior intelligence officer walks into the briefing room and says “The United States has placed their nuclear missiles in Taiwan, but don’t worry - that’s exactly the same as Russia having missiles, or India having done some nuclear tests and maybe having a shitty delive…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN