Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 538 posts

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#151

Post by onethought »

robbedpeter wrote: post #137
onethought wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punish them how? The global economy is heavy reliant on a cooperative China. UK have made it clear they aren’t part of the EU so why would the EU care? Just recall the context China are operating from: Hong Kong was stolen from them at the height of the opium wars. There is no fairness in these geopolitical dealings. Overall this sucks for HK… but it’s actually easy to understand all the parties involved actions/inac…

The China of the opium wars was a completely different entity than Communist China. I don't see that there is any obligation whatsoever to deal with the ccp as if they are the legitimate successors of all things formerly China. They're lying, cheating, and stealing from every entity they deal with on the world stage, blatantly holding themselves above any law, even internally. This doesn't end well unless there's som…

I wasn't defending their action. Just pointing out that is the context they operate from. Whether it is fact or indoctrination isn't really important. Their action is 100% consistent with that belief.

Every country is lying/cheating/stealing... Is there an honest operator out there?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#152

Post by TimTheTinker »

Yeroc wrote: post #116
asdff wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Beijing ever martyrs the protestors like tianeman again I don't think the world will take kindly to that at all. I even think russia would join an american coalition. China has no strong allies that wouldn't prefer to spare themselves in the event of worldwide intervention and they can't fight off the entire developed world alone no matter how far they came in recent decades.

Ah, but China holds all the financial levers to keep everyone in their place. If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Take a look around you and think about that for a few minutes. They can get away with almost anything. The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.

> If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported.

That would be the best thing that ever happened to the rest of the world, and to Chinese citizens as well.

China has long abused its citizens to undercut global prices on manufactured goods. Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison); and wages for factory work are very low compared to the rest of the world.

In the early 1930s, the USSR survived by shipping so much grain out of Ukraine that by 1933, 25% of the Ukrainian populace had died. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes always abuse people one way or another to survive.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#153

Post by pempem »

hker wrote: post #147
Yeroc wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but China holds all the financial levers to keep everyone in their place. If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Take a look around you and think about that for a few minutes. They can get away with almost anything. The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.

> They can get away with almost anything. Not if factories move to Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Bangladesh, India, etc., as the current trend continues.

In most of the countries you've identified China has a strong toehold already.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#154

Post by tablespoon »

refenestrator wrote: post #143
tablespoon wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. And the alternative might have been "let the Soviets win." That choice would have definitely been a way to avoid war and achieve a kind of "peace."

What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in…

> but don't tell me it's human rights.

The world is a messy place and at many times it may be impossible to pursue that goal in an entirely consistent manner.

There's also the other factor of self-preservation. It's not a good strategy to cede advantages to your opponent and hope a deus ex machina saves you in the end.

> The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in like 40 years. Xi is pretty worrying but until he starts doing that, let's not agitate for killing a bunch of people just in case.

Who's advocating for a bunch of killing? I think the main (perhaps only) thing I'm seeing advocated for here is diplomatic recognition.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#155

Post by pedrosorio »

krapp wrote: post #85
chasd00 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, it's well known in tech that you're putting your job/livelihood at risk by speaking contrary to the political groupthink. Many people who didn't vote for Clinton or Biden are effectively in career hiding. Threatening someone's job over their beliefs/opinions is very effective censorship.

>Many people who didn't vote for Clinton or Biden are effectively in career hiding. Are they? Where? In the American South, where I live, Republicans, Conservatives and Trumpists are still loud and proud, and gainfully employed.

Recent case of a CEO losing their job in the American South (HQ: Roswell, Georgia) for supporting the recent Texas abortion law: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-07/video-gam...

EDIT: To be clear, this not evidence in favor of the comment you were responding to: "There is a trend of certain dominant power in all of these countries that is quashing all opposing voices". As far as I can tell, supporting things the majority of society disagrees with has always been ground for career repercussions in the "land of the free" (as it is in the rest of the world).

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#156

Post by asdff »

yodsanklai wrote: post #144
asdff wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has sophisticated missile defense systems and enough nukes to send the entire continent of asia back to the stone age. A nuclear war started by any other nation than the U.S. is literally suicide, and these world leaders know it which is why all there has been since WWII in terms of nuclear warfare is saber rattling.

>US has sophisticated missile defense systems and enough nukes to send the entire continent of asia back to the stone age So does China with the US.

China's arsenal is almost a full order of magnitude smaller than just what the US has currently deployed and ready for launch (not counting the rest of the stockpile which is like 4x the size). We have enough weaponry to completely overwhelm their defenses. China does not.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#157

Post by swayvil »

errantmind wrote: post #25
masterof0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? Another war? I'm having a hard time believing the economic elite in the US will be in favor of loosing business in China.

Economic sanctions. Tariffs and the like. War with a nuclear power is not a viable option

We could always conduct war with trollfarms, propaganda etc.

China's unfree speech would actually be a strong asset in such a conflict.

Makes you think

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#158

Post by whiskyant »

masterof0 wrote: post #13
jmclnx wrote: post #5

I really wish the US and Europe would get *lls and punish China for breaking the treaty with Hong Kong and the UK

How? Another war? I'm having a hard time believing the economic elite in the US will be in favor of loosing business in China.

Economic sanctions are the best ways to punish a country

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#159

Post by abacadaba »

asdff wrote: post #105
kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

If Beijing ever martyrs the protestors like tianeman again I don't think the world will take kindly to that at all. I even think russia would join an american coalition. China has no strong allies that wouldn't prefer to spare themselves in the event of worldwide intervention and they can't fight off the entire developed world alone no matter how far they came in recent decades.

You realize they have millions of their citizens in reeducation camps right now as we speak that may or may not be harvesting their organs, right?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#160

Post by refenestrator »

tablespoon wrote: post #154
refenestrator wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in…

> but don't tell me it's human rights. The world is a messy place and at many times it may be impossible to pursue that goal in an entirely consistent manner. There's also the other factor of self-preservation. It's not a good strategy to cede advantages to your opponent and hope a deus ex machina saves you in the end. > The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in like 40 year…

As of right now, there's no battlefield. China's official doctrine has been non-interference in other nations since Mao and they've mostly stuck to it with a few aberrations like a 30 day war in Vietnam.

Xi has been pushing the limits internally and maybe one day that turns external but people here are talking about pre-emptive cold war.

EDIT: diplomatic recognition is a purely symbolic move, and in this case the symbol is a middle finger to China. I'd argue the upsides are limited, but I was more objecting to the general theme of china hawkishness that points towards a new cold war.

Post reply on HN