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Sayings of Spartan women

penelope.uchicago.edu

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Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#161

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

spaced-out wrote: post #157
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that "Sparta" was close to "80% enslaved people" is confused and I hold the author of the linked article responsible for not clarifying the confusion. "Sparta" is the name of the principal city of the city-state of Lacedaemon, which comprised the regions of Laconia and Messinia in the Peloponnese. The inhabitants of the city of Sparta are in ancient sources referred to as Lacedaemones ("Λακεδαίμονες") and ar…

>The idea that "Sparta" was close to "80% enslaved people" is confused and I hold the author of the linked article responsible for not clarifying the confusion. ... >The people inhabiting the greater area of the Lacedeamonian city-state, the inhabitants of the settlements in Laconia and Messinia, were never referred to in any ancient text as "Spartans" or "Lacedaemones" and they were only referred to, to the extent t…

There is no such thing as "The entire Spartan state". There is (well, was) the city-state of Lacedaemon and the city of Sparta. The two are confused because Lacedaemon is often synechdochically called "Sparta" and the people of the city of Sparta are usually called "Lacedaemones" in ancient sources. But the people in Laconia and Messinia (not just Messinia) were "helots", not "Spartans", not "Lacedeaemones" and not anything else.

So if you want to say that the people who lived in Laconia and Messinia were the slaves of the Spartans, which we call the helots, and that there many more times more helots than there were Spartans, then you're welcome, because that is accurate. But to say that "Sparta was closer to 80% enslaved people" as the OP says, is false.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#162

Post by Larrikin »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #156
TimTheTinker wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP speaks the truth. At least since the Roman empire, there has been no form of slavery in the Western world anywhere near as brutal as American slavery. (not to exclude the East or the Arab world, I just don't know enough to comment on them) In the Roman empire, selling oneself as a slave was even seen as a last resort when capital was urgently needed (like when a debt repayment was ordered by a magistrate and a per…

> Slaves could also buy their freedom, and were sometimes even given their freedom as a gift. Again, this is not a difference between ancient slavery and American slavery. Why do you mention it? > Of course, there were cruel masters as well as kind ones. But prior to the African slave trade, the institution itself wasn't remotely as brutal or morally abhorrent, because it wasn't built on a social commitment to racism…

You're arguing that exceptions and rare occurrences in American slavery are equivalent to the norms in Rome and for some reason trying to make American slavery seem like it really wasn't all that bad.

Your style of responding also makes it seem like you're arguing the point that slavery wasn't all that bad in the US from a very specific view point

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#163

Post by Hizonner »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #145
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roman slaves at least had a path to freedom. Or a good portion of them did. Many (not majority) became citizens eventually (or their children did) and many in fact became quite prosperous. Their slavery wasn't based on racial status, but on class, and slavery wasn't considered genetically predetermined, but a product of status and conquest. "Graduation" out of slavery was actually possible. American slavery being bui…

> "Graduation" out of slavery was actually possible. This is also true of American slaves. > Their slavery wasn't based on racial status, but on class, and slavery wasn't considered genetically predetermined, but a product of status and conquest. So is this. You think the child of a free black was enslaved?

> This is also true of American slaves.

Bullshit. By the 19th century (which is the century everybody talks about) it was almost legally impossible to free a slave in the American south (things like, say, a $200 tax in Florida... which was more money than most people saw in a year).

Even when possible it was essentially never done.

> So is this. You think the child of a free black was enslaved?

In many of the US slave states, if you were a free black person, regardless of who your parents were, you had to either leave the state within a fixed time, or you would be enslaved. So, yes.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#164

Post by pacman2 »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #11

I don’t think Sparta was as cruel and callous as portrayed. I think our view of Sparta is influenced by two main things: 1. Spartan propaganda. It was in Sparta’s interest to portray themselves as crazy, devoted warriors who relished the thought of dying for their country. How would you feel going up against a bunch of guys who would rather die on the field of battle than go home in defeat and have their own mothers…

I have read a comparison about the structure of the Spartan society, basically consisting mostly of slaves like no other culture that used slave labor. Today we know what early experience of violence may do to a person and as far as I now, Spartans hat to kill one helot to be finally admitted into adult Society.

So we get two things.

1. A worrier based elite society, consisting basically of psychopaths

2. A society structure that seem more to resemble a concentration camp with guards.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#165

Post by wavefunction »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #149
thaumasiotes wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering that American-owned slaves were treated much crueler on average than Ancient slave populations What?

OP speaks the truth. At least since the Roman empire, there has been no form of slavery in the Western world anywhere near as brutal as American slavery. (not to exclude the East or the Arab world, I just don't know enough to comment on them) In the Roman empire, selling oneself as a slave was even seen as a last resort when capital was urgently needed (like when a debt repayment was ordered by a magistrate and a per…

>there has been no form of slavery in the Western world anywhere near as brutal as American slavery

Absolutist statements like this rarely seem to hold true.[0] American slavery is European slavery as well. Europeans (both countries and individuals) benefited extremely handsomely from enslaving people in Africa and bringing them to their colonies in America. And even after they had finally outlawed slavery for themselves just a few scant decades before the US did, they kept buying that affordable slave-produced cotton and sugar and coffee and etc. from the Americas.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#166

Post by nsajko »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #147
fishtoaster wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iirc that series addresses this critique in some depth, pointing out that sparta was particularly awful even by the standards of other greek states. Another interesting bit was how it's historically rare for slave-owning societies to have more than 50% of their population enslaved. Since sparta was closer to 80% enslaved people, they relied on particularly brutal methods to keep down the regular slave revolts, making…

The idea that "Sparta" was close to "80% enslaved people" is confused and I hold the author of the linked article responsible for not clarifying the confusion. "Sparta" is the name of the principal city of the city-state of Lacedaemon, which comprised the regions of Laconia and Messinia in the Peloponnese. The inhabitants of the city of Sparta are in ancient sources referred to as Lacedaemones ("Λακεδαίμονες") and ar…

Sparta can also refer to the entire state. I think you're making a fuss out of nothing.

Also, Sparta wasn't just Spartiates and helots, you're forgetting about mothakes and perioikoi.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#167

Post by datameta »

SyzygistSix wrote: post #160
datameta wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind expanding upon this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

It seems that a primary supporter of the White Feather movement was a key member of the _anti_suffrage movement: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Augusta_Ward

So, I am interested what sort of overlap with the Suffrage movement the parent commenter was talking about.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#168

Post by klipt »

lq313c wrote: post #60
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a very interesting series. However, I think he understates classic Spartan military prowess. If you look at Deveraux's list of military victories and defeats, you will see a lot of the defeats came after the Peloponnesian war. I believe even Greek sources talked about how Spartan society became softer after winning the Peloponnesian war. Also, the Spartans were famous for their army not their navy. If you take…

He also points out that the Spartans fought primarily against much weaker opponents, making their military prowess not so impressive. If I constantly pick fights against children, my win rate would be quite high as well.

But isn't "all their opponents were weaker" just another way of saying "Sparta was unusually strong"?

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#169

Post by nsajko »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #152
estaseuropano wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the entire series and can't agree with your assessment at all. Yes he was very critical of Spartan society, but I feel he very clearly demonstrates through various sources why he has these views, e.g. highlighting that most of what we hear, see and might admire about Sparta is true only for 3% of the population (spartiates), while the vast majority are lower classes and in particular slaves (helots). And even…

Note that this is from memory but, for example, the author of the linked blog posts makes an outrageous distinction between the free people of "Sparta", which he calls "Spartiates" and all "Spartans" which includes the helots. This is were your expression "3% of the population (spartiates)" comes from. That is an outrageous distinction that is not found in any ancient or modern source. It appears to be something that…

> outrageous distinction between the free people of "Sparta", which he calls "Spartiates" and all "Spartans" which includes the helots

> That is an outrageous distinction that is not found in any ancient or modern source. It appears to be something that the author completely made up in order to support his revisionist interpretation of the history of ancient Sparta.

Terms like "Spartiate" are standard.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#170

Post by metalliqaz »

Hizonner wrote: post #163
thaumasiotes wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Graduation" out of slavery was actually possible. This is also true of American slaves. > Their slavery wasn't based on racial status, but on class, and slavery wasn't considered genetically predetermined, but a product of status and conquest. So is this. You think the child of a free black was enslaved?

> This is also true of American slaves. Bullshit. By the 19th century (which is the century everybody talks about) it was almost legally impossible to free a slave in the American south (things like, say, a $200 tax in Florida... which was more money than most people saw in a year). Even when possible it was essentially never done. > So is this. You think the child of a free black was enslaved? In many of the US slav…

enslaved to whom?
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