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Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

virginiamercury.com

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Re: Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

#61

Post by cfn »

collegeburner wrote: post #41
cfn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big trucks use odometers to enforce driver regulations and there is a whole semi-hidden market for tools and fixes that disable the odometers, even electronic ones. Menaing, they are easy to interfere with. I still agree with the other's posters that tracking is conveniently useful for other things.

This is like people who argue that tax fraud and money laundering justify banning cash to leave only trackable means of transaction. Tampering with an odometer is illegal and though some people will defraud that doesn't justify another step towards a surveillance state.

And I totally agree with you. I was just pointing out that odometers are easy to fool.

Re: Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

#62

Post by jefftk »

guiltygods wrote: post #59
jefftk wrote: post #8

The general idea of charging road users partly in proportion to miles traveled makes a lot of sense. But why, every time this is proposed, do people talk about fancy tracking mechanisms? Why can't we just use odometers? I mean, yes, the odometer cannot measure how much of your mileage is in Virginia versus other states, or how much is on what kinds of roads, but it is so much cheaper to implement that I would expect…

You need location info in addition to distance since roads and infrastructure are owned and maintained by various agencies. The solution could be to build upon EZPASS. Have the EZPass readers in every signboard or lamppost along the highways. They can read and record distance travelled along a particular highway so that revenue can be attributed to appropriate agency.

This is a proposal to replace the gas tax, which doesn't give you that information today. So I don't see how it's required?

We could divide the money how we do today, or could sample road usage to estimate an appropriate division. We don't need per-car level data.

Re: Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

#63

Post by cascom »

belltaco wrote: post #54
tappaseater wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my town, when a few of us got rooftop solar, some homes reduced their electric bills significantly, in some cases, to less than zero, so the Light Dept said (publically in meetings) we weren't paying our fair share. The real issue was a threat of loss of revenue. It is fair to ask homes that pay nothing, always pay something, but the term "fair share" is inaccurate and emotive.

Why don't you fully cite what they said? The issue is that maintenance of the grid also has costs. So if everyone hovers on net zero(or even pumping electricity back to the grid), who pays the cost for maintaining the electric lines and the salaries of people who work on managing the grid? The grid will go down with no repairs. Money doesn't grow on trees. That's what they mean by fair share, the homes are still conn…

I don’t think the implication was they shouldn’t pay a fee, but that the term itself is loaded. An honest accounting would indicate the very few of us pay our fair share of anything

Re: Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

#64

Post by throaway46546 »

jefftk wrote: post #60
jefftk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but that's already illegal (since we need accurate mileage for used car sales)

Having your odometer connected costs ~$1k/y in depreciation, and people don't generally disconnect it. Do you think they'll start for the opportunity to save an additional $100/y?

Older cars don't depreciate as much. Mine are pretty much done depreciating. I also understand that it is possible to flash the ECU on some newer cars to change the mileage.

I just checked and according to the NHTSA cars over ten years old aren't even required to have a functional odometer (you just have to disclose it when you sell it). I'm not sure how common odometer fraud is, or would be under your proposed law, but the bigger the incentive the more likely I think it would be to occur.

You are right though most people would comply with the law.

Re: Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

#65

Post by choeger »

PietdeVries wrote: post #49
choeger wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. It's nuts to build infrastructure and then punish its use. Overuse or non-propertional damage should be punished, of course. Infrastructure costs should be divided by its users (or society as a whole) and then users should be encouraged to maximize utilisation. Imagine someone would do this to bike lanes, railroads, or optical fiber. The facts that gasoline cars are a problem for the climate and that cars take…

No - the use of gasoline does not impact the cost of the road. But it can be used to persuade people to use the bike lane next to it. People are amazingly sensitive to costs - check for instance tax benefits. As soon as a product is subsidized by means of a tax rule, people run as fast as they can to get it. Hybrid and now electric cars are a great example (at least in the Netherlands). By having people pay by the mi…

But road usage by cars is not the problem, CO2 emissions is. By doing this kind of punishment-by-proxy the whole taxation becomes ideological (car too big, car too foreign) and loses legitimacy. Keep in mind that in a democracy you shouldn't aspire to force people to do "the right thing", you should aspire to create consensus. A high tax on gasoline is easy to understand and easy to argue for. Double payments, illogical taxation, and "nudging" just pisses people of into the arms of right-wing parties.

Re: Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

#66

Post by swiley »

nradov wrote: post #55
swiley wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just raise the fuel tax. Tolls create traffic problems and I’m very careful to avoid them because of that.

Higher fuel taxes can be part of the solution in the short to medium term but will become less effective over time as the fleet gradually transitions to BEVs.

Tax tires then.

Re: Virginia maps out optional per-mile road fee program for 2022 launch

#67

Post by rocqua »

refurb wrote: post #53
rocqua wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently the complete cost of shipping food includes road damage that is not priced into shipping but instead borne by all citizens. By making those responsible for road damage, pay for it, they have an economic incentive to stop the damage.

Not priced into shipping, but equally borne by all tax payers. If all tax payers benefit through transportation of food and other essentials, that’s not really an externality? The people paying are the ones who benefit?

It's an externality because the people who are paying aren't the people who are causing the damage.

This isn't so much unfair, but it does remove incentives for the shippers to cause less damage to the roads.

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