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Sayings of Spartan women

penelope.uchicago.edu

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Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#131

Post by xgb84j »

refurb wrote: post #49
xgb84j wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While violence is sometimes justified, I think it's still better to build a society that tries to solve its problems without violence or prevents problems that can only be solved with violence. When you have reckless people attacking the elderly you need better psychological healthcare and a better social system to prevent that. I understand your point and in a narrow context it's definitely true, but in a larger con…

What about the people that are violent, not because of mental illness, but because well, they want to cause others pain?

Many of these people are heavily traumatized. Charles Manson for example was mistreated by his mother and in prison. If there were better child protective services and a more humane prison system in place, he might never have done what he did.

Most people doing evil things are in part doing these evil things as a result of their circumstances. By changing their circumstances through social programs you reduce violence and make everyone happier as a result.

You can argue that blaming violence on circumstances ignores people's own responsibility, but I believe that better social and medical programs are still worth it because they attack the part of the root cause society can influence most easily.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#132

Post by thaumasiotes »

throwaway20371 wrote: post #126
fishtoaster wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iirc that series addresses this critique in some depth, pointing out that sparta was particularly awful even by the standards of other greek states. Another interesting bit was how it's historically rare for slave-owning societies to have more than 50% of their population enslaved. Since sparta was closer to 80% enslaved people, they relied on particularly brutal methods to keep down the regular slave revolts, making…

> Another interesting bit was how it's historically rare for slave-owning societies to have more than 50% of their population enslaved Probably worth noting, then, that in 1860, South Carolina and Mississippi had over 50% population enslaved, and four more states over 40% population enslaved. Considering that American-owned slaves were treated much crueler on average than Ancient slave populations, I'm curious whethe…

> Considering that American-owned slaves were treated much crueler on average than Ancient slave populations

What?

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#133

Post by rebuilder »

retrac wrote: post #91
rgvr wrote: post #90

I don't understand the point of changing words like "many" to "mony" or "man" to "mon". I mean if you're anyway writing the entire thing in modern day English then why do this. Is it just for the effect of it I.e., making it look sophisticated? or is it some kind of attempt at retaining the originality/authenticity?

Some people take the Sapir-Whorf theory too seriously: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Isn’t this a site for people who take some things too seriously?

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#134

Post by Applejinx »

stult wrote: post #123
rgvr wrote: post #90

I don't understand the point of changing words like "many" to "mony" or "man" to "mon". I mean if you're anyway writing the entire thing in modern day English then why do this. Is it just for the effect of it I.e., making it look sophisticated? or is it some kind of attempt at retaining the originality/authenticity?

I think I vaguely recall the explanation from a classics course many, many, many years ago, but I can't find a source without investing a ton more effort, so take this with a grain of salt: IIRC, Plutarch wrote the sayings in intentionally archaic (for his time) Greek. He lived hundreds of years after Sparta had disappeared as a power in the ancient world, so he could have intended it to demonstrate the great antiqui…

To me it sounded like suddenly they were Rastafarians. Or perhaps Rastas out of the William Gibson novel, Neuromancer? I've read that more recently than I've read the history of Bob Marley and the Wailers, because I still have Neuromancer but sold Catch A Fire (I should go buy another copy, it was a very good book).

I doubt any of this was the intent.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#135

Post by cmrdporcupine »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #132
throwaway20371 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another interesting bit was how it's historically rare for slave-owning societies to have more than 50% of their population enslaved Probably worth noting, then, that in 1860, South Carolina and Mississippi had over 50% population enslaved, and four more states over 40% population enslaved. Considering that American-owned slaves were treated much crueler on average than Ancient slave populations, I'm curious whethe…

> Considering that American-owned slaves were treated much crueler on average than Ancient slave populations What?

Roman slaves at least had a path to freedom. Or a good portion of them did. Many (not majority) became citizens eventually (or their children did) and many in fact became quite prosperous. Their slavery wasn't based on racial status, but on class, and slavery wasn't considered genetically predetermined, but a product of status and conquest. "Graduation" out of slavery was actually possible.

American slavery being built on "race" and white supremacy offered no such path. Even "mixed race" descendants suffered. Even after slavery was abolished, former slaves were (and often are) still treated abhorrently.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#136

Post by Applejinx »

dragontamer wrote: post #118
Applejinx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense. It's like a perfect metaphor for imbalances between individualism and collectivism. Seems like Sparta internalized personal valor so intensely that the only collective good they could possibly understand, was to project the whole country as an imagined heroic individual, and then try to individually triumph in the name of that country. Meanwhile, there's a lot of countries out there with more of an inter…

As far as I can tell, the modern world has left the realm of "individual vs collectivism" and is more about "individual vs collective vs collective-of-collectives". There's nothing wrong with the Marines being the modern Sparta, because the Marines are just one team in our team-of-teams of the military. Marines + Army work on the same projects together, so the Marines can be the "unsustainable elite fighting force",…

Yes, absolutely. If we need Spartans, and we have that larger perspective, we can make not only the Spartans, but also the context for them to exist in. You've got it exactly right.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#137

Post by pvg »

Applejinx wrote: post #134
stult wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I vaguely recall the explanation from a classics course many, many, many years ago, but I can't find a source without investing a ton more effort, so take this with a grain of salt: IIRC, Plutarch wrote the sayings in intentionally archaic (for his time) Greek. He lived hundreds of years after Sparta had disappeared as a power in the ancient world, so he could have intended it to demonstrate the great antiqui…

To me it sounded like suddenly they were Rastafarians. Or perhaps Rastas out of the William Gibson novel, Neuromancer? I've read that more recently than I've read the history of Bob Marley and the Wailers, because I still have Neuromancer but sold Catch A Fire (I should go buy another copy, it was a very good book). I doubt any of this was the intent.

Imagine the movie 300 except voiced in the style of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wtj04dJ_g

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#138

Post by thwave »

duskwuff wrote: post #119
nerdponx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figured those were OCR errors or something. How would this help maintain originality?

No, this is intentional. Here's the original book on the publisher's own web site: https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_s... There's a footnote on that part "Cf. the note on Moralia , 190 B, supra ", but I'm not sure what that's referencing.

This footnote refers to Sayings of Kings and Commanders[0], another text of Plutarch, but is not related to the translation.

[0] https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_k...

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#139

Post by slibhb »

chalst wrote: post #88
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #11

I don’t think Sparta was as cruel and callous as portrayed. I think our view of Sparta is influenced by two main things: 1. Spartan propaganda. It was in Sparta’s interest to portray themselves as crazy, devoted warriors who relished the thought of dying for their country. How would you feel going up against a bunch of guys who would rather die on the field of battle than go home in defeat and have their own mothers…

Xenophon was an Athenian, but he was positively disposed towards Sparta and had seen military service under Spartan commanders. He's probably our best source. https://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/sparta-a.html

Ditto for Thucydides, another Athenian who had a positive view of Sparta.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#140

Post by hutzlibu »

brezelgoring wrote: post #127
hutzlibu wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree to that. They still would have to fear, that someone leaks the video of it - and some superior needs a scapegoat to punish, because everyone here respects human rights etc. A legally owned slave, was legally OK to be raped or killed. And ok to proudly tell everyone about it.

>They still would have to fear, that someone leaks the video of it Is it really a deterrent, though? You said yourself that it'd be scapegoated and its not like they depend on good PR to keep their goodies, they own the country after all. Also I can't help but wonder what these people talk about behind closed doors, do they really play by the same rules you and I would be held accountable to behind closed doors?

"they own the country after all."

They still need good relationships with the west. Open slavery would not be tolerated.

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