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How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

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Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#191
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

You are a person who has never been in the very unfortunate position of needing to die. That’s why suicide will never be accepted. Because so few people ever get stuck in that situation.

The "potential for abuse" GP is talking about could be rephrased as: with assisted suicide, many more people would find themselves in the very unfortunate position of needing to die, just for reasons external to them.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#192
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country?

Tunisia, North Africa

I have always found the humility of Muslims saying "In sha'Allah" admirable. It's a beautiful way to remind ourselves that our fate -- and our life -- is not entirely in our hands.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should provide free birth control and better sex education. Morning after contraception should also be free -- a fertilized, un-implanted egg is not a human -- it's a potential human.

>a fertilized, un-implanted egg is not a human -- it's a potential human. Is there a scientific reason for that idea? I don't see how implantation can really be considered a transition from potential human to human. I think with enough scientific advances a human could be raised entirely outside the womb, and in that case there would be no implantation.

I think the way GP phrased it is a shorthand for "egg just after fertilization" - because today, fertilized eggs either get implanted early or rejected by the mother's body. When science and technology advances to the point of making it possible to gestate humans entirely outside of the womb, the way we talk about this will have to adjust to be more precise.

(Implantation itself doesn't feel like the transition point either, but it's just the last obvious discrete step before the continuous progression all the way to birth.)

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#194
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

You are a person who has never been in the very unfortunate position of needing to die. That’s why suicide will never be accepted. Because so few people ever get stuck in that situation.

I'm very on the fence on this topic; I've watched family members/friends pass in varying degrees of pain, and at least in those cases I'm not sure having assisted suicide would have helped that much. What _definitely would_ have helped would have been better end of life care.

> who has never been in the very unfortunate position of needing to die.

Defining that line is very, very, tricky. People only reach this point at a desperate time, when they are potentailly very vulnerable. There's a huge difference between two people in an end-of-life situation, one who is willing to die and one who isn't, yet both may "need" to die, and we have the meansright now to provide an easier transition from "terminally ill" to the former, but yet people end up in the second bucket all the time.

> Because so few people ever get stuck in that situation.

Yet we have many many people who have suicidal thoughts, and who commit suicide (arguably needlessly), when we have methods of helping. We should have the same methods of helping people who are terminally ill.

(That's not to get into the mess of what do the family of the patient want; things get messy _really_ fast when money is on the line as I've unfortunately witnessed, and it tears families apart.)

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#195

The important difference between physicians and non-physicians in relation to death is not that doctors understand disease mechanisms. It is that doctor's are familiar with death. Ordinary people aren't as familiar with death, and don't have a wide range of responses to it because society hides it and pretends it doesn't exist. The main place regular people encounter death is on the news as a statistic of war and cri…

>Ordinary people aren't as familiar with death, and don't have a wide range of responses to it because society hides it and pretends it doesn't exist.

I relate to this so much. I had a period of staring my potential death in the face and there is nothing in modern society that prepares you for that. I was completely rudderless for a while because I had literally no social context in which death could be faced without making people intensely uncomfortable.

There's many things I think our society is pretty crap at, but the subject of death in general has to be one of the worst offenders by far. We shouldn't be sweeping death under the carpet as a taboo subject and pretending it doesn't exist, it should be something people talk about. Death is the one thing that unites us all, it would be a far less unpleasant thing to face if people could have a sensible conversation about it without fear or grimaces.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#196
I'm seeing a lot of people sharing very personal and very difficult anecdotes here, and I am worried that that would make someone decide to reject chemotherapy outright, or recommend a loved one to reject it.

Yes, chemotherapy has very adverse side-effects. But it's also the best course of action we currently have for a lot of cancer patients. It varies depending on the type, grade and stage of the illness, as well as the patient's overall health [1]. It should not be rejected outright.

Now for my personal anecdata: My sister in law was in her 30s when they detected her breast cancer, and got chemo for some time. It was a very difficult time for her, but it worked - the cancer receded. She kept having to do get periodical checks to keep tabs on it.

Unfortunately her cancer came back, and this time it was more aggressive - it resisted all treatments and eventually metastasised. They took her off chemo, but her health deteriorated very quickly anyway. She died 1 and a half years ago, at home.

On average, chemotherapy gave her and my brother around 7 years of life, in exchange of some very shitty quality of life moths due to side effects. They definitively made the right choice in taking chemo the first time, and not taking it the second time. A lot of people's cancers never come back.

I am not saying that chemotherapy is worth it in all cases. I am painfully aware that it isn't. But it is worth in a lot of cases. Don't reject it outright.

PS: I should mention that we live on a country with a civilized health care system where her treatments were paid for by the state's Social Security. No one in this story had to deal with "can we afford this treatment" problems. If you are in that situation, I am sorry for you.

[1] https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326031

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

> The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification ...for nothing. The right to abortion isn't premised on any of those, in general. The only one that is particularly relevant as a justification is protecting the life of the mother, and that mostly has to do with abortions later in pregnancy, Cobstitutionally. Otherwise, the justification of abortion is bo…

Bodily autonomy? Is that a thing in the law? What's the justification for the drugs laws then?

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#198
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same thing. I often contemplate my death, and how I am going to die. And yes, I derive some comfort from it - knowing I have lived my best life and done the best I could at it. There are things I haven't achieved yet that I want to experience, so I don't want to go just yet. But if it happens, then I'm good with that. But I'm an atheist, and firmly believe that this is all we get, and death really is the e…

What often brings me joy is thinking about my life before birth, I like to think death will be just the same. If so life after death can't be so bad.

Yeah, you'd think so. I thought so. But I can't get myself to die. After death, there's nothing.

And I understand now why some people say it's terrifying. Between decades of suffering or eternity of nothing, what would you choose?

Don't half ass the answer, go on a bridge with a heavy backpack zip tied to yourself, put a loaded gun to your head or have a fistful of TCA pills in your hand, whatever, then answer it.

I don't want to live, but I ain't keen on dying either, to paraphrase Robbie Williams.

I really wouldn't mind being killed by something out of my control, though.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#199
My heart really goes out to those of you who went through long battles. Today would have been father’s birthday, sadly he passed away last year aged 61. I often anguished over how quickly he left us, two weeks from the day I found out he was sick to the day he died, I now realise that although I was robbed of time, he and I were both saved a lot of pain.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#200
The author implies (by omission) that palliative care results in a peaceful, pain-free death. You can't rely on that!

I wonder how often physicians die as a result of taking a drug such as Nembutal - the drug recommended by Exit International. Civilians can't buy this drug - not even illegally, e.g. on the Dark Web, as far as I can see. But physicians can.

I don't want to get caught. I don't want the kind of "palliative care" that amounts to death-by-dehydration. If I get throat cancer and can't swallow, no amount of pain-killers will make my death pleasant.

I want a stash of Nembutal, so that I can do myself in, if the prospect I'm facing is a nest of wires and tubes or untreatable pain. It's an ethical disgrace that it's illegal for me to manage the end of my own life.

Apparently any relative that accompanies me on the plane to Switzerland risks prosecution for assisting a suicide. So if I want to die quickly and peacefully, I'll have to do that on my own.

The amount of humbug that swirls around this subject makes my head swim.

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