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The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

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Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#101

Post by skc »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #74
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #68

It is exactly the failure of Microsoft and Apple to propose any meaningful cross-platform API. Both are fighting to increase vendor lock-in - it is in their best interests that apps written on Windows don't work on macOS/iOS and the other way round. Linux/OS folks themselves are unable to solve this problem on their own and it becomes a mouse-and-cat game. The popularity of web apps helped to reduce the problem, but…

Microsoft has destroyed the Windows desktop singlehandedly on their own. Since Win8 and “Metro” they moved away from having consistent UI widgets like it was in Windows 2000 or XP but instead made the Windows desktop a Wild West if different UI paradigms. Even the ribbon introduced a new UI paradigm that wasn’t available to third party devs. If even MS themselves doesn’t bother to be consistent then developers certai…

Well that's all well and good but it doesn't explain why even Mac OS devs are moving en masse to building for the web.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#102

Post by WA »

blub wrote: post #95

The technological change is following the changes in the nature of software development. Perhaps the most important one is the wide-spread contamination with the poisonous mix of VC money with the start-up "move fast and break things" mentality. Notice how the arguments pro Electron always include speed of development, speed of deployment, etc. (dev-focused) and the counter-arguments include performance, usability, e…

> Notice how the arguments pro Electron always include speed of development, speed of deployment, etc. (dev-focused)

You kinda oversimplify the multi-platform reality of 2021 and its requirements from a user perspective.

Most apps used to be Windows-only. Nowadays, most apps need to be Windows, macOS, iOS and Android. This is a user-focused requirement.

"It's either a multi-platform Electron app or it is no macOS app, because we don't have the resources". See this post linked here a couple days ago: https://nielsleenheer.com/articles/2021/why-electron-apps-ar...

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#103

Post by rowanG077 »

GreenWatermelon wrote: post #84
rowanG077 wrote: post #60

Honestly I can't fathom the same company that made vs code which is really snappy for an electron app made Teams. It's almost like the best electron app vs the worst electron app.

Probably different teams and a cast difference in developer experience. MS likely didn't care that much about teams.

That doesn't show from how they use Teams. It's literally integrated into Windows 11.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#104

Post by WA »

mohanmcgeek wrote: post #2

Electron apps are still desktop apps. The web however did eat the desktop: everything other the browser and the text editor is now a web app. I have literally 4 apps that I use on my machine: terminal and postman in addition to the above. I am wondering why mobile apps too haven't entirely been replaced by Web apps

> I am wondering why mobile apps too haven't entirely been replaced by Web apps

There are many Cordova/Capacitor-based web apps in a Webview shell with access to native APIs.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#106

Post by torginus »

This is a bit of an aside - but can anyone explain why Electron apps use so much memory/system resources? Is this a fundamental thing or accidental thing and could be remedied rather easily? I wonder why there hasn't been significant effort directed toward this, as this is the number 1 issue of desktop applications today.

I have a few guesses/questions:

- What kind of data is causing the GBs of memory usage? Is it JS objects, cached content, intermediate rendering data?

- Chrome is architected as a multi-process app, in order to isolate and share resources between websites. Since Electron runs as a single app, it doesn't need this overhead, how hard would it be to turn it off?

-Would it gain us a lot if we removed v8/minimized JS on the 'frontend' and just pushed all the html from the 'backend'?

-Is using node as the backend the cause of excess resource usage, would using something else be better?

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#107

Post by saagarjha »

jeswin wrote: post #32
xvector wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do want to see a return to native apps but there are no worthwhile incentives to do so outside of "our customers demanded a native app." Every native app I have ever used has been many times snappier than its Electron/Web equivalent. Think on why customers demand native apps.

How can you say that customers are demanding native apps when only a minuscule number of users can tell if an app is native or not? Most are not even familiar with the term native; desktop installed app (of all types) vs browser app at best.

Don't confuse ignorance with indifference. Most people can't tell you anything about engines but they certainly can feel that a Porche drives better than a Camry. When you talk about Electron you'll hear things like "why is my computer so slow" or "my fans are always on" or "my battery life is terrible": people will know, but they won't know it's Electron.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#108

Post by saagarjha »

bsenftner wrote: post #12

Even for 2017, this is extremely late thinking. Back in '10 it was clear the consumer desktop was dying a rapid death. Now professional and business software are going the same way, and it is no wonder because nobody respects desktop development anymore. The advent of tools like Cosmopolatan libc are looking too late and too "hard" for new developers to catch on, so far...

Cosmopolitan libc is fun as a toy but not something you can ship software on. Its design is just fundamentally disconnected from how operating systems work today.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#109

Post by saagarjha »

davidgerard wrote: post #80
Uberphallus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this pretty funny. In the 00s and early 10s, the Linux desktop was criticized because of the inconsistency in the look and feel, e.g. using Firefox (GTK) in KDE (Qt) plus random apps in Motif, TK, or straight up Swing. The consistency of Windows and OS X desktops was desired and looked for: people migrated themes across toolkits, synchronized font settings, etc. Now every Electron app does their own thing and…

yes, this sort of objection is always fake

It's not fake, it's just that it's been drowned out by a wave of people who are indifferent or ignorant.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#110

Post by speedgoose »

jamil7 wrote: post #52
gobookdev wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VS Code is my fav piece of software of all time, it's an Electron app

Agreed it’s an excellent editor however it has a lot of engineering resources behind it and still suffers from sluggish performance, especially on startup.

It starts quickly on my laptops. What kind of hardware do you use ?
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