20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports? • Hacker News Board

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#671

Post by acdha » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #612

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that. Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat. Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

Pre seems like a nice service for terrorist groups, too: sign up your deep-cover types and have them make some benign flights. If the TSA is on to your group, you'll get a notification in the mail that your Pre status has been revoked.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#672

Post by mixmastamyk » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #646

carabiner wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSA Pre requires fingerprinting and a background check. You definitely give up some privacy in signing up for it. I mean you can unlock some computer devices with fingerprints.

The government already has my fingerprints, because I had to give them to get a passport (edit: I've been informed this was only because I also did Global Entry) and also when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone and also when I got my driver's license. Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints.

I don’t remember having fingerprints done for my passport, though it was twenty years ago. Did that change?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#673

Post by seph-reed » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #658

GhostVII wrote: post #537

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

> We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths It would be a highly controversial dashboard, I guarantee it, likely unpopular with both political parties. The problem is that assuaging fear is often more important (to irrational people) than saving lives. For example, guns…

What if -- and I know this is a crazy idea -- but what if there was some sort of metric beyond popularity by which things were reported? Maybe even decided?

For instance: if there was a free online study (in person test) "critical thinking" series of classes, where you could become accredited as a person who knows at least the basics of how lying works, statistics can be manipulated, science is hard, etc, etc, etc... if you had that credential, it could be included in stats.

"While 85% of people say they're really worried about X, only 12% of critical-thinking accredited citizens consider it something worth focusing on."

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#674

Post by vowelless » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #658

GhostVII wrote: post #537

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

> We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths It would be a highly controversial dashboard, I guarantee it, likely unpopular with both political parties. The problem is that assuaging fear is often more important (to irrational people) than saving lives. For example, guns…

> For example, guns. Very few people die because of mass shootings.

Adjusted for how armed Americans are, gun violence in this country is tiny. And seeing what an armed citizenry can do against the full American force (Afghanistan), an armed population is a necessity against tyranny in America.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#675

Post by babyshake » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #537

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

I've definitely considered this regarding COVID. It seems commonplace where I live that many people feel it is irresponsible to not wear a mask when doing something like hiking on an almost empty nature trail, but will drive recklessly on the highway without a second thought.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#676

Post by mrtksn » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

jfrankamp wrote: post #664

mrtksn wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually they did a study on the masks and proved effective. It was done by picking a population of 350K, then separating them to test and control groups, encourage mask for the test group. The results are that at 39% mask use in the test group the covid cases were %12 lower than the control group. There was also a difference between surgical mask(%12) and cloth mask(%9) use. [0] https://twitter.com/Jabaluck/status/1…

No actually required :-). I didn't say masks were not effective, I said part of their effectiveness is the making-conscious of transmission vectors. E.g. when you wear a mask and see others do it you are more likely to wash your hands or stand back. When you wear a mask (as I do) in addition to blocking some particles you signal to others "lets play the not kill eachother game by limiting virus vectors!"

Fair enough:) They should also made some of the test ground really chill to see if it is the mask or the attitude!

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#677

Post by throwaway20371 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

I don't have to take my shoes off airports. A govt contractor looked at my birth certificate and driver's license and charged me $78, and then gave me a special number to put on my boarding pass. Now a man at security gives me a little red flag that says I don't have to take my shoes off.

Honestly, I don't know why everyone doesn't pay for TSA PreCheck and GlobalEntry.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#678

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

tinus_hn wrote: post #513

thrownaway810 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This aligns with lab tests showing that surgical masks have better filtration than cloth masks. However, cloth masks did reduce the overall likelihood of experiencing symptoms of respiratory illness during the study period. What is it that you think you read in this article? What you have said is not supported in any way by the link you have provided.

> Although there were also fewer COVID-19 cases in villages with cloth masks as compared to control villages, the difference was not statistically significant. This means you can’t draw conclusions from this finding apart from that any difference there actually is is really small.

You can't draw conclusions from that study... yet that is exactly what you did in declaring masks to be ineffective.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#679

Post by throaway46546 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

BoxOfRain wrote: post #475

dmarcos wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not cynical when looking at the incentives. Once a rule is in place for “safety” reasons the political cost to remove is really high (what if something bad happens?). Politicians won’t touch it. That’s why I think exceptional measures should expire automatically (on a date or when a hard condition is met)

>That’s why I think exceptional measures should expire automatically I'd go even further than this, I'd argue that all laws that ordinary people are likely to come into contact with in the course of their everyday life should have an expiry date, forcing a debate every x decades as to whether or not they're still fit for purpose. The date could be variable based on the nature of the legislation, but this mechanism wo…

I think that would just cause issues like with the debt ceiling, but instead of a "government shutdown" we could have critical laws expiring and their renewal being held hostage.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#680

Post by jarjoura » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

Since we can't realistically ask everyone to succumb to background checks we at least have to put in some safety checks along the way.

It's by design that it's annoyingly slow to get through airport security. It prevents people from rushing into the airport and rushing onto a plane unnoticed. What may look like incompetence is actually very meticulously structured.

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Besides, as airports are going through remodeling they are getting more and more comfortable to hang out in.