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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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631–640 of 969 posts

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#631

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

People are just fine at evaluating risk. It's just that the prioritization of the population is different than the prioritization of HN/Reddit/whatever. "People" aren't bad at stuff. On average, they're about average at it, which is tautologically true. People don't wanna die in a car crash or from covid but they want to die at the hands of others even less.

> "People" aren't bad at stuff. On average, they're about average at it, which is tautologically true.

That is absolutely not true, at least not in the way anyone means.

Humans are "terrible" at remembering numbers. The average-ability human has average ability, obviously, that is tautological. But as a whole, humans are not good at remembering numbers.

A reasonable question is, what does "good" even mean? Well that depends on context. We are worse at remember numbers than computers are. We are worse at remember numbers than the same human, but with pen and paper. We are worse than some animals.

Obviously, there is no objective "good" or "bad". We are better than some animals, etc.

But when someone says that humans are terrible at evaluating risk, they usually imply that we are bad at it as compared to risk evaluation done with real calculations, and that is internally consistent. And that is something that IS somewhat objective, and most humans fail as compared to this objective standard (e.g., lots of contradictions in risk decisions).

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#632

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that. Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat. Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

Isn't it also the preliminary and ongoing background check. Essentially they're saying we can check you well enough to decide if you're a 'threat'.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#633

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that. Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat. Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

I mean, I agree in general but it is also likely that they're performing at least some kind of background check on you when you participate in Pre. They definitely do with Nexus. It does make a certain degree of sense as a program if you believe in the premise of the entire security theatre apparatus to begin with. Especially within the US where domestic air travel has traditionally required very weak identification…

They run a background check on you whenever you buy an airline ticket. The airline submits their manifest to the TSA to cross check with the no-fly list. The only thing that TSA pre does is give you a number that is unique to you (as opposed to a name that you may share with someone else). They could easily solve this by having you submit your SSN or Passport number whenever you buy an airline ticket.

I agree on Nexus, they basically do the entry interview ahead of time and then assume the answers are the same until they aren't (I have that too). That one actually makes sense.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an impatience mismatch between the average traveler and airport security. Flying out of Philly Airport, the TSA yelled at everyone to take off their belt and shoes, shaking their head in disbelief at people that didn't know the rules, wasting everyone's time. A few months later, same airport, new rules, now the TSA yelled at people taking off their belts and shoes because that's not a rule, shaking their hea…

The Philly airport employees are some of the least hospitable I've encountered traveling, especially their TSA. They come off as actively hostile about everything

Yeah I think this is more of a Philly thing than a TSA thing.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#635
Topics like this is why I'm against domestic vaccine passports like the Canadian provinces are suggesting we use. Temporary measures that become perm and dramatically change our way of lives - especially with poor risk / reward evaluation.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#636
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you eliminate the risk of hijackings?

Reinforced cockpit doors with strict policies in place for when the pilots can open it, which is what we do now (in the U.S. at least) even with all of the TSA stuff.

Those doors don't stop a hijacker from executing stewardesses until the pilot opens the door.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#637

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that. Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat. Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

TSA Pre requires fingerprinting and a background check. You definitely give up some privacy in signing up for it. I mean you can unlock some computer devices with fingerprints.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#638
post #632

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that. Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat. Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

Isn't it also the preliminary and ongoing background check. Essentially they're saying we can check you well enough to decide if you're a 'threat'.

See my sibling comment, the TSA does a background check on everyone who flies already. The difference is that with Pre you have a unique number instead of a possibly non-unique name.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#639
post #40

Things like this are why I'm so cynical about COVID stuff. We have an unconditional commitment to stupid reactive policies that elevate symbolism far above sensibility, and boy does it have a lot of inertia. The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie.

What about 650000 American dead makes you cynical about COVID?

It just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many deaths in a certain age group above 65 y.o.. Most age groups had very few deaths.

Isn't the same true of 9/11? The FAA oversees 45,000 flights per year and very rarely does anyone die.

Too late to edit, but that should be 45,000 per DAY
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