20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports? • Hacker News Board

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#391

Post by chitowneats » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #157

bedhead wrote: post #40

Things like this are why I'm so cynical about COVID stuff. We have an unconditional commitment to stupid reactive policies that elevate symbolism far above sensibility, and boy does it have a lot of inertia. The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie.

> The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie. I don't see the same parallels. After 9/11 the US was extraordinarily united and committed to vengeance. Thousands joined the military. After COVID we're more divided than ever and people are not even willing put a piece of cloth on their faces. Widespread denial and resistance to anything inconveniencing them. Whereas after 9/11 people were willing…

Most people in 2021 would agree that the overzealous response to 9/11 caused untold suffering and misery. At the time though, either you were with us or against us. Good or evil.

Are you sure that's the parallel you want to be drawing here? Might you have a different opinion about this event in, oh, say, a decade or two? By then of course the damage will have been done.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#392

Post by curryst » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

dsauerbrun wrote: post #221

angott wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe you're not required to take off your belt because of an arbitrary rule like shoes in the US. They just tell you to take it off because most belts have metal parts so they will likely trigger the metal detector.

I thought the shoes being taken off wasn't arbitrary. I thought it was because of the shoe bomber(Richard Reed)

It's arbitrary because all they do is X-ray them. X-rays can't tell you whether there are explosives in the shoe, all you can do is look for signs the shoe has been altered.

I don't think that requirement would have stopped Richard Reid. Maybe someone notices that his shoes look a little odd under the X-ray, but with sports shoes coming with weird air pockets and Heelys existing, it's not that odd.

It also slows down people moving through, making the security line a bigger target, and forces people to sit down just past security to put their shoes back on. Again, making the security line a much larger target.

We'd be better off just forcing everyone to do the hand swabs. One airport I went through had some kind of machine that purportedly could detect trace explosives coming off your clothing or skin. Those would be way better, if they work.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#393

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #324

jdavis703 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually isn’t the goal of terrorism. I’ve studied terrorism and the definition is essentially non-state actors using violence for political means. Now we can go in to various conspiracies from “Bush planned 9.11 as a false flag” to “Bush ignored intelligence reports so he could launch the war on terror,” but those are mostly just unproven conspiracies unrelated to what al-Qaeda wanted.

Saudi Arabia's decades long record of cultivating extremist outfits, and "influence operations" is, thought, not a conspiracy theory, but a fact. When I first seen 9/11 on TV as an 11 year old, I instantly thought that Ryadh will be turned into a crater within a few hours. I dropped my jaw out of suprise, when I heard US going to declare war on Iraq — Saudis' biggest enemy. It made zero sense. I kept on watching the…

>I dropped my jaw out of suprise, when I heard US going to declare war on Iraq — Saudis' biggest enemy.

You're being more than a little disingenuous ignoring the fact that we invaded Afghanistan specifically to go after the extremist group that was responsible for 9/11 about 2yr prior to invading Iraq, which was done for different reasons and "harboring terrorists" took a back seat to WMDs on that list of reasons.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#394

Post by lexapro » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

thereddaikon wrote: post #379

bserge wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of terrorism is to scare people into restricting their own freedoms. It has worked amazingly well so far. To any motivated anti-society organization or person, this is huge leverage. A few deaths leading to a noticeably more authoritarian state? What's not to love? It doesn't even matter if the authorities do their job and punish those responsible, the people will still choose to restrict their own freedoms…

"Terrorism" in the broad sense of the act does not have a goal. Because it is a means to an end, not an end itself. Terrorists do what they do for many reasons. Some are political, some are due to sectarianism. Sometimes its because they are crazy and have irrational motivations. Rarely is it the goal of the terrorist to force a society into tyranny. Timothy McVeigh was seeking revenge. Bin Laden was trying to force…

It can be an end to itself and it often is: retaliation

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#395

Post by rootusrootus » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #254

spoonjim wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That security isn’t necessarily to stop terrorism. It’s also to stop people from bringing in weapons and then using them in drunken brawls.

Most airline passengers would trade dry flights for pre-9/11 security screenings.

Instantly. Where do I sign?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#396

Post by hunterb123 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #282

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

> It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity Maybe it is about shifting the blame. If something happens outside, it's the police failure but if something happens inside it is venue management failure. Anyway, I completely agree that we have given up way too much in the name of security. If it's not the terrorist, then it is "think of the children" scare and we are abou…

The new thing is "think of grandma".

Say delta variant enough and you can get anyone to give up anything.

Post covid is like post 9/11. This is the new normal. Vaccine passports and all.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#397

Post by bradstewart » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

I'll agree that most stadium security seems to be mostly theatre, but people are definitely not more spread out once inside the stadium. At least not at any large stadium I've ever been in which at least a dozen entrances with people going in over the course of several hours.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#398

Post by usrusr » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

> If someone did want to do something at such a sporting event, nothing is stopping them from doing it at the gates where there is a reliable and unsecured mass of humanity

Theres a mass of people, but few cameras. Much worse cost/benefit ratio in terms of whatever craziness terrorists would supposedly consider benefit.

(feel free to spend the rest of your day thinking up silly wordplay involving "bang for the buck", I wish you were alone in this if you do)

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#399

Post by thereddaikon » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

lexapro wrote: post #339

mLuby wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quibble: terrorism is using dramatic violence to achieve political ends. It just so happens that the victimized society often wants to increase security. The US had at least 3 major responses to 9/11: 1) seek revenge (invade Afghanistan, kill Bin Laden), 2) armor up (Dept. of Homeland Security), and 3) unify under nationalism (flags everywhere). It's pretty easy to imagine a timeline where some or none of those ha…

In the case of 9/11 the most likely motive was retaliation. If you could ask the terrorists, they would tell you that America terrorized them first (I'm not saying that's accurate).

We actually know their motivations because Bin Laden didn't hide his agenda. He wrote a fair bit on the topic. He wanted to force a change in US foreign policy to stop supporting Israel specifically and to leave the middle east in general. He saw himself as an Islamic anti-imperialist. It was actually pretty straight forward.

step 1: have big terrorist attack on American civilians

step 2: American civilians ask "why me?", his words not mine btw.

step 3: civilians find out what US gov has been doing in the middle east and call for change.

In hindsight its an incredibly naïve plan. And I think it ironically shows a lack of knowing your enemy on his part. Americans don't take well to being attacked or intimidated. If you want them to leave you alone the worst thing you can do is provoke them to action.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#400

Post by ridethebike » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

xscott wrote: post #269

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

I suspect it's not about protecting the people (your college stadium example), and that it is about protecting the expensive airplanes. If I'm being charitable, it might also be about protecting the buildings that planes can crash into.

Planes are not that expensive