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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#91

Post by k7sune »

baybal2 wrote: post #64
baktubi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the nation should make military training/civil service mandatory. The reality is that random attacks will happen in random places and everyone needs to be equipped to handle accordingly. Basic combat training and paramedic abilities, disaster recovery and such associated procedures. This would create a tighter bond between citizens and improve communities ability to look after one-another. If everyone handles…

Funny fact is that conscription largely lowers the risk of prolonged civil wars, Syrian being one fat exception.

It also makes citizens more aware of the cost of war. Had conscription use up so much time of a citizen’s prime years, I think it would be more popular.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#92

Post by camillomiller »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #50
yalogin wrote: post #30

The TSA is just a huge scam to siphon money and they need to show they are providing value. Taking shoes off is that value, so yeah it’s never going away. We could get out of Afghanistan but will never get rid of the TSA.

It's all incompetent theatre. I remember around 2006 or 2007 snaking through a terribly managed security line in ATL taking off my shoes, doing all the questions and scanning and pat downs and irradiation and getting through and then some random person shouted "did someone drop their passport?" and realizing it was mine and my passport had fallen out of my bag. So I call back "yep, I did" and it gets handed to me by…

Well, just before the pandemic I flew through Frankfurt, Milan and Berlin Tegel forgetting about the Leatherman knife in my backpack's side pocket. I noticed it only when I was back home after my flight back.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#93

Post by Godel_unicode »

bambax wrote: post #42
adriancr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cockpits are now locked by default, so there's no terrorist getting in there anymore, they can threaten anything, all it would do is divert to closest landing spot.

Yes, and this is why crazy pilots suffering from depression can bury their planes in the ground and nobody can do anything about it. 200 people lost their life in the crash of Germanwings 9525 on March 24, 2015, but this is not classified as a terrorist attack so it doesn't really count for anything. However, it is the direct consequence of the so-called security procedures implemented the world over; those 200 peopl…

This lead directly to the rule that nobody can be alone in the cockpit. If you're in the front of the plane when a pilot needs to use the toilet you'll see the dance; service cart blocks the aisle, flight attendant goes into the cockpit, then one pilot comes out.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#94

Post by sidlls »

chrisseaton wrote: post #61
adriancr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cockpits are now locked by default, so there's no terrorist getting in there anymore, they can threaten anything, all it would do is divert to closest landing spot.

I wonder if they should have separate external door for the cockpit and no door from the cabin to the cockpit. Absolutely no chance of hijacking whatsoever.

Then how would pilots do things humans need to do, like go the restroom or eat (on prolonged flights)?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#95

Post by fma »

stoolpigeon wrote: post #18

The US is the only place I think I've had to remove shoes for flight security in years. But in Europe taking off a belt is often required while in the US it is not. In Budapest they stopped having us remove laptops from bags a bit ago. My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

Sometimes I get the magic "Pre-check" and I'd forget I don't need to take the laptop off, for example.

I just try to look ahead and see what others are doing.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#96

Post by filleokus »

ridaj wrote: post #56
bambax wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and this is why crazy pilots suffering from depression can bury their planes in the ground and nobody can do anything about it. 200 people lost their life in the crash of Germanwings 9525 on March 24, 2015, but this is not classified as a terrorist attack so it doesn't really count for anything. However, it is the direct consequence of the so-called security procedures implemented the world over; those 200 peopl…

Source? This is at best an indirect consequence EDIT post downvotes: what I mean is that even without a lock on the cockpit to prevent their copilot from entering, it seems difficult to prevent a determined pilot from crashing a plane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525#Cause_...

> Robin said that when the captain left the cockpit, possibly to use the toilet, Lubitz locked the door, preventing anyone from entering. The captain had a code to unlock the door, but the lock's code panel could be disabled from the cockpit controls. The captain requested re-entry using the intercom; he knocked and then banged on the door, but received no response. The captain then tried to break down the door, but like most cockpit doors made after the September 11 attacks, it had been reinforced to prevent intrusion.

This seems like a pretty direct consequence to me. Similar to how an ultra isloated air-gapped environment with only one-way networking[0] would mean that the ops people couldn't easily stop e.g an ransomware attack in its tracks when detected. It's a cost/consequence of having the isolated network in the first place.

(If there was some magic code that always opened the cockpit door, then that could be coerced out of someone, yielding the system almost pointless)

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidirectional_network

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#97

Post by Bud »

iso1210 wrote: post #48
adriancr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cockpits are now locked by default, so there's no terrorist getting in there anymore, they can threaten anything, all it would do is divert to closest landing spot.

TK1476 in 2006. Flying from an EU country to Turkey on a major airline. "Italian Interior Minister Giuliano Amato reported that the hijacker slipped into the cockpit with a package which could have been a bomb when flight attendants opened the cockpit door, and the pilots acted according to the international rules in the matter and did what the hijacker wanted."

Great, so you found 1 case in the last 20 years where some idiot opened the cockpit door. Congratulations. This changes nothing.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#99

Post by chrisseaton »

sidlls wrote: post #94
chrisseaton wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if they should have separate external door for the cockpit and no door from the cabin to the cockpit. Absolutely no chance of hijacking whatsoever.

Then how would pilots do things humans need to do, like go the restroom or eat (on prolonged flights)?

> Then how would pilots do things humans need to do, like go the restroom or eat (on prolonged flights)?

With a bathroom on their side of the door, and a packed lunch.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#100

Post by angott »

stoolpigeon wrote: post #18

The US is the only place I think I've had to remove shoes for flight security in years. But in Europe taking off a belt is often required while in the US it is not. In Budapest they stopped having us remove laptops from bags a bit ago. My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

In Europe you're not required to take off your belt because of an arbitrary rule like shoes in the US. They just tell you to take it off because most belts have metal parts so they will likely trigger the metal detector.
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