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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#321

Post by wpietri »

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

Is the primary goal of security at a college football game to stop a suicide bomber? I strongly doubt that's how they see it.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#322

Post by horsawlarway »

ctrlp wrote: post #230

The obvious purpose of removing shoes at airports has long been more about security theater than safety. The authorities must be seen to be doing something to protect travelers or the industry might not survive the customer's perception of danger. But, the less obvious reasons surely include maintaining the function of the huge TSA security apparatus put in place after 9/11. The stated function of the TSA is to prote…

> The unstated (and unacknowledged function) that has perpetuated the practice despite every traveler hating it (and its obvious futility), is to intimidate travelers and provide a convenient mechanism of crowd-control.

I think you're misguided here. I certainly do understand the viewpoint that this security theater is harmful (and agree, actually). But lets be honest: The TSA has nothing to do with "Scaring the sheep" and everything to do with "Politically acceptable jobs program".

Way too many soldiers coming home from our senseless oversea wars? Great - put them to work "Guarding" our airports. Super convenient that all states have airports that will "need" these jobs, so it's easier to pass than targeted jobs programs that would actually be useful.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#324

Post by baybal2 »

jdavis703 wrote: post #288
bserge wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of terrorism is to scare people into restricting their own freedoms. It has worked amazingly well so far. To any motivated anti-society organization or person, this is huge leverage. A few deaths leading to a noticeably more authoritarian state? What's not to love? It doesn't even matter if the authorities do their job and punish those responsible, the people will still choose to restrict their own freedoms…

This actually isn’t the goal of terrorism. I’ve studied terrorism and the definition is essentially non-state actors using violence for political means. Now we can go in to various conspiracies from “Bush planned 9.11 as a false flag” to “Bush ignored intelligence reports so he could launch the war on terror,” but those are mostly just unproven conspiracies unrelated to what al-Qaeda wanted.

Saudi Arabia's decades long record of cultivating extremist outfits, and "influence operations" is, thought, not a conspiracy theory, but a fact.

When I first seen 9/11 on TV as an 11 year old, I instantly thought that Ryadh will be turned into a crater within a few hours.

I dropped my jaw out of suprise, when I heard US going to declare war on Iraq — Saudis' biggest enemy. It made zero sense. I kept on watching the satellite TV at my neighbour's house, and was hoping that it was my knowledge of English failing me. It didn't.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#325

Post by mLuby »

bserge wrote: post #248
duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

The goal of terrorism is to scare people into restricting their own freedoms. It has worked amazingly well so far. To any motivated anti-society organization or person, this is huge leverage. A few deaths leading to a noticeably more authoritarian state? What's not to love? It doesn't even matter if the authorities do their job and punish those responsible, the people will still choose to restrict their own freedoms…

To quibble: terrorism is using dramatic violence to achieve political ends. It just so happens that the victimized society often wants to increase security.

The US had at least 3 major responses to 9/11:

  1) seek revenge (invade Afghanistan, kill Bin Laden),
  2) armor up (Dept. of Homeland Security), and
  3) unify under nationalism (flags everywhere).
It's pretty easy to imagine a timeline where some or none of those happened.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#326

Post by xadhominemx »

mywittyname wrote: post #180
chrisseaton wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Correct, but I think the general escalation of security in airports which caught the Richard Reid Eh? But he wasn't caught due to airport security. He got onto the plane and tried to set off the bomb during the flight. He would have been caught if someone had looked at his shoes.

But if he knew they were checking shoes at airport security, then he probably would have put it somewhere else.

Where?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#328

Post by mschuster91 »

GDC7 wrote: post #186
mschuster91 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. In trains with a separate locomotive, passengers cannot even get to the driver compartment. In any electrified rail scenario, a runaway/commandeered train can be stopped by removing the power supply and then diverting the train onto catch points. Not to mention that running a red light triggers an a…

Again your message proves that you think about the people outside the vehicle as A-class citizens and those aboard as B-class citizens. There are 300+ people on a train and 4000+ on a cruise ship, those things don't need to be used as a weapon to cause a very sad day for the whole Nation in terms of human lives lost. Even if the thing is not used as a weapon.

It is extraordinarily difficult to kill or maim people on land using a ship as a weapon - it will simply run aground, and there are guides aboard on ships big enough to cause damage when they are near the shore, as an additional defensive measure against incompetence and hijackings (insert obligatory Ever Given meme here).

For trains, the situation is similar. Even if you manage to bomb a train, it's unlikely to cause a major, deadly disaster. Rail infrastructure is built with the assumption that trains will get out of control, and the industry has nearly 200 years of experience.

Trains, ships and airplanes are ineffective weapons that need a lot of knowledge to turn into an actual weapon. A truck is way more effective: easy to acquire, easy to use, and even right in the middle of an attack people will assume that the driver has lost control or has medical issues instead of being a terrorist.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#329

Post by finnh »

jdavis703 wrote: post #288
bserge wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of terrorism is to scare people into restricting their own freedoms. It has worked amazingly well so far. To any motivated anti-society organization or person, this is huge leverage. A few deaths leading to a noticeably more authoritarian state? What's not to love? It doesn't even matter if the authorities do their job and punish those responsible, the people will still choose to restrict their own freedoms…

This actually isn’t the goal of terrorism. I’ve studied terrorism and the definition is essentially non-state actors using violence for political means. Now we can go in to various conspiracies from “Bush planned 9.11 as a false flag” to “Bush ignored intelligence reports so he could launch the war on terror,” but those are mostly just unproven conspiracies unrelated to what al-Qaeda wanted.

One of those is a conspiracy theory. The other isn't. WMD?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#330

Post by scelerat »

EMM_386 wrote: post #21
88 wrote: post #5

I thought the removal of shoes was a response to the Shoe Bomber plot, not 9/11? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid

It wasn't related to the Shoe Bomber plot, there was planning around something larger scale. To be honest I don't feel comfortable even linking to this stuff but it's Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_plot

TIL that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, believed to be the planner of the 9/11 attacks as well as the failed Bojinka plot linked above, had his trial for numerous charges (including 9/11) restarted just yesterday.

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/trial-of-ac...

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