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The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

blog.coinbase.com

111–120 of 454 posts

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#111
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They repeatedly refer to lengthy sets of questions they received from the SEC, both in person and in writing. If you don’t think that is the SEC communicating their “rationale” for a decision and offering insight into what acceptable alternatives might look like then you obviously haven’t dealt with the SEC, nor do you understand what it is that they do. (I actually do have some relevant experience here - I was a par…

> Despite Coinbase keeping Lend off the market and providing detailed information, the SEC still won’t explain why they see a problem. Rather they have now told us that if we launch Lend they intend to sue. Yet again, we asked if the SEC would share their reasoning with us, and yet again they refused. Plain as day! And as to experience, I was CTO of the first company to settle with the SEC for an ICO: https://www.sec…

> …all of the SEC’s questions in writing and then again in person… They asked for documents and written responses…

Plain as day!

And since you have so much experience dealing with the SEC, you surely understand that the specific questions they ask will typically reveal precisely their rationale for taking the (extraordinary) step of an enforcement action, just as a prosecutor’s investigatory questions reveals their legal theory of a crime.

The SEC doesn’t go around issuing Wells notices every day, and they typically don’t issue them without giving recipients the opportunity to choose a different path. We’re only hearing one side of this story, and even that one side contains so many hints of willful obtuseness that you have to be a blind partisan to take Coinbase’s “shock” at face value.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#112
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lend can pay you less than 4%. That being said, loans are not usually considered securities. Although they are regulated by FINRA.

Mortgage backed securities are securities even though they are loans under the hood. Bond is also a loan. Same with money market accounts. There are a bunch of debt securities.

You can package almost anything into a security.

A bunch of machines and a factory is not a security, but you can package it into a security.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#113
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you put your money into a saving account, you're lending the bank your money with an 0.04% interest rate. Is that a security?

> lending the bank your money with an 0.04% interest rate. Is that a security? No. Banks are regulated separately and more strenuously than securities firms, much less issuers. If Coinbase wants to offer Lend as an FDIC-insured deposit account, I’m sure the SEC would be fine with it. But Coinbase can’t do that because it doesn’t follow the rules banks must follow.

And FDIC might not want them.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#115

Seems to be gone from the internet. Can't find it in archive.today or archive.org either. reddit comment thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pk2rjl/coin... Which points to a tweet thread from Brian Armstrong of Coinbase that is still there for now.... https://twitter.com/brian_armstrong/status/14354409980546539... unrolled (and probably will still be there even if tweets deleted?) https://threadr…

It's there for me. Copied below if people are still having trouble seeing it. The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why. By Paul Grewal, Chief Legal Officer Last Wednesday, after months of effort by Coinbase to engage productively, the SEC gave us what’s called a Wells notice about our planned Coinbase Lend program. A Wells notice is the official way a regulator tells a company that it inten…

> Chief Legal Officer

And Coinbase has a market cap of $70B. I'm scared of investing in a company valued at that much that facilitates trading what are essentially digital trading cards with a chief legal officer with such a poor read on the SEC.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#116

Seems to be gone from the internet. Can't find it in archive.today or archive.org either. reddit comment thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pk2rjl/coin... Which points to a tweet thread from Brian Armstrong of Coinbase that is still there for now.... https://twitter.com/brian_armstrong/status/14354409980546539... unrolled (and probably will still be there even if tweets deleted?) https://threadr…

At first, I assumed Medium was being Medium.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#117
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're guaranteeing it in the same way that when you buy a corporate bond with a 4% yield, you're guaranteed to get the money[0]. A bond is still a security. [0] Right? Counterparty risk!

But all contracts have some element of counterparty risk. Contractual guarantees are just contractual, nobody can give absolute guarantees of anything.

Lots of defi has no counterparty risk. Much of it is over collateralised and managed by smart contacts.

There is of course software risk in the smart contract (although I think people underestimate that in conventional finance too).

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#118
post #42

> They have only told us that they are assessing our Lend product through the prism of decades-old Supreme Court cases called Howey and Reves ... These two cases are from 1946 and 1990. Trying to make out like Howey is some obscure precedent from decades ago which the SEC is nitpicking over. The Howey test is the test applied to determine if something is an investment contract.

The Howey Test is absurdly broad. Two kids pooling their pocket money to buy the extra large bag of candy with a plan sell the extra gummy worms meets all four parts of the Howey Test and is unlicensed securities creation.

Reminds me of the Bloomberg article "Everything Everywhere is Securities Fraud" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#119
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Despite Coinbase keeping Lend off the market and providing detailed information, the SEC still won’t explain why they see a problem. Rather they have now told us that if we launch Lend they intend to sue. Yet again, we asked if the SEC would share their reasoning with us, and yet again they refused. Plain as day! And as to experience, I was CTO of the first company to settle with the SEC for an ICO: https://www.sec…

> …all of the SEC’s questions in writing and then again in person… They asked for documents and written responses… Plain as day! And since you have so much experience dealing with the SEC, you surely understand that the specific questions they ask will typically reveal precisely their rationale for taking the (extraordinary) step of an enforcement action, just as a prosecutor’s investigatory questions reveals their l…

The SEC can and does provide candid advice. I know entrepreneurs who have had lengthy calls with both state and federal SEC reps who will give straight talk.

This is not that. This is preparation to make a court case to use as precedent to attack the industry.

I feel the SEC is being a bad actor - stifling innovation rather than encouraging it.

Over the last 10 years the HN chattering class has dismissed crypto endlessly. I laugh all the way to the bank and its rise has been inevitable to anyone who understands software and finance. I look forward to the court case.

Re: The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’t know why

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all contracts have some element of counterparty risk. Contractual guarantees are just contractual, nobody can give absolute guarantees of anything.

Lots of defi has no counterparty risk. Much of it is over collateralised and managed by smart contacts. There is of course software risk in the smart contract (although I think people underestimate that in conventional finance too).

The security of the Ethereum network is the counterparty
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