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Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

newyorker.com

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Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#591
post #293

Chomsky wrote the definitive progressive answer to all this 50 years ago: https://libcom.org/files/chomsky%20-%20iq%20building%20block... Still timely and fresh, especially considering that he was critiquing Herrnstein 20 years before The Bell Curve. Because he's smart and unafraid, either of science or the truth, Chomsky never denies the possibility of a genetic component to IQ, even IQ/race. What he denies are the…

I suspect the leadership of the leftists in America know that there are race IQ differences, but they use this to set up a loop to gain more power. How do you increase your authority if you know that races are not all of equal ability? 1. Lie and publicly express that you think all races are of equal ability at all things. 2. Widely report that some races don't do as well as others on standardized tests, etc. 3. Blam…

I'll lead with this - people should be treated with respect regardless of their race and regardless of their IQ. People should be given equal opportunity to succeed, regardless of any differences.

> Widely report that some races don't do as well as others on standardized tests, etc. >Blame racists, or even a whole race that does better as the cause of this.

We have widely studied and reported on reasoning for why some races do worse on tests in america, and the answer is not inherent differences in race, and it has very reasonable scientific backing. The reason is racist policies that made it harder for some groups to succeed. This is a real thing in American history. It's the same underlying reasoning why many rich coastal enclaves in liberal areas also do better on standardized tests - better access to opportunity and support.

> 3. Blame racists, or even a whole race that does better as the cause of this.

Its pretty hard to ignore the american history of racism, from slavery to redlining to KKK to modern day voting laws. And its pretty easy to connect the dots to how those MASSIVE issues affect people in 2021.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every instance of attempts at building socialist governments have been tied at the waist to authoritarianism Hence the fierce insistence from large parts of the socialist movement throughout history that it must be radically democratic - otherwise oppression, rather than liberation will be the result.

The issue with being radically democratic is what to do with the portion of the population who doesn't want socialism? The communist parties thought they had to be authoritarian to force the transition. Or at least that was their justification.

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Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that racism is wrong because we all have equal capabilities is preposterous to begin with, why, you might as well justify sexism in that way. Nobody challenges that women are physically weaker then men. Trying to point to this, and scream out of loud as part of some fetish is preposterous, and trying to justify sexism. Nobody denies that genetics exist. Waging a sneaky campaign to seep into scientific publ…

> Nobody challenges that women are physically weaker then men. I have encountered multiple people in my personal life who are offended by the idea that women are physically weaker than men. There is also plenty of evidence of this in the raging debate surrounding transgender (specifically male to female) individuals and their physical advantages competing against non-transgender women. So yes, I would say there are m…

> There is also plenty of evidence of this in the raging debate surrounding transgender (specifically male to female) individuals and their physical advantages competing against non-transgender women.

Yes, this is a huge issue in progressive ideology that is trying to take a local maxima of least-resistance arguments.

There are solid arguments why M2F individuals are not problematic in sports, but "there are no differences" is not one of them. Better ones include, the inherent differences are much smaller after hormonal changes most m2f people undergo, or that elite tier athletics are already self-selecting for the most genetically extreme people anyways, further reducing the difference.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#595
post #271

Genetics has a huge influence on what someone is predisposed to and what they can achieve. Certain ethnic groups and families, on average, are more likely to have certain traits and less likely to have others. But genetics doesn't matter , in that just because you have "bad" genetics doesn't mean you'll suck, whether it comes to weightlifting, intelligence, temperment, etc. Maybe you won't be in the top 0.0001%, but…

Sure, that's a good point generally but doesn't seem at all the problem the article is addressing. Skimming it, it's about progressives denying group differences at all and calling those who research them 'equivalent to Holocaust Deniers'. From following genetics research and researchers, I've seen plenty of that, and I don't see the relevance of your point here.

The point is that progressives should stop being so afraid of accepting genetic differences, because they don't go against the type of policies most progressives are after. And because genetic differences are probably real, when progressives argue against racism etc. because "genetic differences don't exist" they actually hurt their position.

Policies that discriminate based on genetics are bad, not because genetic differences aren't real, but because they're a) inaccurate, especially compared to measuring the differences themselves, and b) usually immoral, because having good genetics is luck and doesn't make you deserve a better life. Chomsky (see above comment) probably does a better job explaining this.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#596
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murray was as far as can be determined acting in good faith. The general argument of the Bell Curve, that people from different parts of the world have wildly different distributions on many different attributes, is (or ought to be) completely non-controversial, consistent with almost all scientific evidence and obvious.

> The general argument of the Bell Curve, that people from different parts of the world have wildly different distributions on many different attributes, is (or ought to be) completely non-controversial, consistent with almost all scientific evidence and obvious. “That people from different parts of the world have wildly different distributions on many different attributes” is, as you say, obvious. But just because t…

There are, in fact, much more things that are common between humans than things that vary between populations.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#597
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the drawback of modafinil is that it seems to reduce my ability to recall things from long -term memory. Also, it makes it hard to switch tasks when it's necessary.

There is something called U-shaped response, with stimulants. If you are functioning at the optimal point - stimulants will only make your performance worse. You are likely sleep deprived, for whatever reason. That's all.

I don't think that's the case at all.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#598
post #293

Chomsky wrote the definitive progressive answer to all this 50 years ago: https://libcom.org/files/chomsky%20-%20iq%20building%20block... Still timely and fresh, especially considering that he was critiquing Herrnstein 20 years before The Bell Curve. Because he's smart and unafraid, either of science or the truth, Chomsky never denies the possibility of a genetic component to IQ, even IQ/race. What he denies are the…

So I know a lot of people mentioned in this New Yorker piece. Not well but I consider them colleagues. I have a lot to say about it on several levels.

On the one hand, I've had to deal firsthand with the phenomenon Paige-Harden is talking about, in hiring discussions and faculty meetings. It's infuriating and bizarre to see the level of denial that arises among people who ostensibly are extremely intelligent and well-educated. It reaches a point where my only conclusion has been that these individuals are completely out of touch in an ivory-tower sense, that they have no idea what happens in clinical settings, and the problems that arise in terms of phenomena that are obviously congenital disorders or near-disorders, even if they don't have a label per se.

On the other hand, I think the behavior genetics community is in a bit of denial itself, about the strengths of its models and reliability of its conclusions. The field has found itself in a no-mans land the last decade or so, in that the revolution promised by the genome area instead stripped the field of results: the findings of the twin era, when faced with molecular genetics, largely evaporated. This is alluded to in the article with polygenic risk scores, but those I suspect will face a similar crisis of replicability; although they predict outcomes, it's relatively weak when you get to behavior, and much weaker still upon replication.

This all leads to a general sense within the BG community and without that the models and findings of behavior genetics are based on very big assumptions, assumptions that seem to fall apart when looked at through a microscope. They might have some validity in a broad brush sense — in the sense that yes, there are some sets of genes that collectively lead one to have higher functioning cognitive ability, and some that lead to impairments — but the tricky details most people wrestle with are mismodeled. Comparing one end of the bell curve to the other is doable; less doable is comparing adjoining areas of the curve. There's also the strange complexity of life, which is largely absent from these models. A common pattern is for some BG conclusion to be drawn in the literature, and then everyone has very clear, prima facie evidence — on the news, in everyday experience, and so forth — that clearly contradicts it. The BG community wrestles with it, comes up with some contorted explanation for why there's no contradiction, and then silence.

The reason why I'm posting in response to your comment is that underlying all of this I think is a fundamental, often implied concern about BG research: that it is not oriented toward intervention, change, or improvement. What it concerns itself with are characterizing with abstract descriptions — "additive genetic variance", or "polygenic risk" — people as if they are static objects. It's not oriented toward identifying something specific or manipulable, like a neurophysiological pathway that can be changed, or the products of specific genes. Even when research is oriented toward potential change, as in environmental interventions, genes are still treated as something fixed and unchanging, background that is to be covaried out because it's not something we should do anything about.

So, even though I think the left-leaning segments of academia definitely go overboard in how they approach behavior and genetics, there's some sympathetic groups who largely reject it for other reasons. They see the field as fuzzy and unreplicable in a levels-of-analysis sense, if not sample-to-sample sense, and are skeptical of the overall worldview implicitly being promoted.

I need to reread the Chomsky piece; it's dense and full of excellent points. But part of what it points to is the fundamental problem with seeing individuals in society in terms of reward or punishment for what they are, rather than in terms of the obligation of society at large toward improving other individuals.

The real crisis looming on the horizon isn't the failure of the left to appreciate behavior genetics. It's the failure of everyone to appreciate the implications of a civilization where we will soon be able to alter our genes at any stage of life, as well as the neurobehavioral structures that are downstream from them. Where does the moral obligation lie then? With the individual or society? What value is there then in abstract quantifications of variance due to the individual at birth, and variance that occurs later?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#599
post #399
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The topic of the article, and therefore of my comment, is progressive takes on the issue. If you aren't a progressive, you don't agree with any of those. That's fine but trivial, it doesn't need pointing out. My point is that within the range of progressive arguments, Chomsky's is definitive because it doesn't involve the intellectual contortions that other progressive positions are increasingly depending on.

You can be a progressive without believing that we can organize society so that value creation is rewarded with nothing but "respect" and "intrinsic satisfaction". That's Chomsky's argument. It's false.

The statement you are putting forwards assumes many things - that value is decided by solely by monetary values as decided by "the market", that a market that can calculate values perfectly is possible, that social rewards have no value, that socialism is incompatible with rewarding people materially for material product, etc..., which most people would say are false.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#600

Genetics has a huge influence on what someone is predisposed to and what they can achieve. Certain ethnic groups and families, on average, are more likely to have certain traits and less likely to have others. But genetics doesn't matter , in that just because you have "bad" genetics doesn't mean you'll suck, whether it comes to weightlifting, intelligence, temperment, etc. Maybe you won't be in the top 0.0001%, but…

> If you look at the top 10 distance runners, they're all from Ethiopia and Kenya. But as you look further down the list into the top 100, you start to see Americans and others. Furthermore, the Americans' times are really close to the Ethiopians and Kenyans. > Because it doesn't say anything about the individual people, who vary much more than the difference in averages. It's not clear it says anything about the dif…

I don't follow your argument well. If a country trains more people to get into distance running, it could definitely skew their average even if their etnicity has bad running genetics.

But "doesn't say anything about the individual people" point is that, if you take any one person, no matter what their parents' genetics and environment say (barring extreme examples), they have a chance to become a great distance runner. A very slim chance, but a chance. Similarly, there are people born from poor families who show a suprising amount of intelligence.

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