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Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

newyorker.com

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Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#371
post #293

Chomsky wrote the definitive progressive answer to all this 50 years ago: https://libcom.org/files/chomsky%20-%20iq%20building%20block... Still timely and fresh, especially considering that he was critiquing Herrnstein 20 years before The Bell Curve. Because he's smart and unafraid, either of science or the truth, Chomsky never denies the possibility of a genetic component to IQ, even IQ/race. What he denies are the…

What could be more devastating to a line of inquiry than derision and scorn? easy! a collective yawn!

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#372
post #140

As a somewhat progressive from the US-perspective (so: European, living in Germany) I don't recall saying genetics didn't impact things. Genetics is just not a lever I am willing to pull in order to influence things. As some of you might recall, the last time Germany tried just that it went into the direction of ultimate genocidal horror. Also there are much more low hanging fruits with a bigger impact on a societies…

> So cool — genetics matter, just like education, nutrition, social situation, security of ones environment etc — but what do we do with this? Not claim that everything is due to a secret cabal of structural racism/sexism/hate on the poor? As long as you have that as your perfect explanation for the state of the world, you won't really make a difference, because you're attacking the wrong issue.

Again with the strawmanning crap.

Humanity has been a work in progress for hundreds of thousands of years yet only in the last 100-200 years has there been any progress at all on widespread sexist and racist societal practices... so why is your prerogative to downplay and disregard the voices of women, non-whites, the poor, and other groups that traditionally have not been heard? Is it possible that you're just another asshole cog that exists solely to normalize the status quo?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#373
post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

> Years of administration telling the math department that our passing rate is too low have led me to pretty much pass everyone who takes the final exam. Last semester 80% passed but only around 50% deserved to Doesn't this contribute to lower the reputation of the universities? I mean, I did sociology in a small university in northern Spain and there was debate between the stats and methodology professors and pretty…

I have always found the university ranking game to be screwed up.

Are the best Universities good because they have the best teaching, or are they just selecting the best people, who would be successfull no matter what?

The universities are penalised in rankings when a student fails to pass, but they are not penalised if they are so selective that the student never got a chance to study in the first place. This breeds an elitist system that does not let students rise to the challenge. Thats also one of the reasons why european universities do worse in rabking than UK ones - it's common there to start with a huge class, but only small part will co plete the course. In UK its harder to get in, but vast majorty seems to pass.

If universities worked like a normal business does, you'd expect that the best universities would grow, expand, and eventually there would an Oxford in every major city, with oxford teaching methods. But that's not how it works. But people still keep trying to appply 'free market theory' to education, when it obviously works very differently.

Lastly there is perpetual conflict between research and teaching - many professors want to do research and don't like teaching, many post graduate teaching assistants are folks that, no matter how briliant, were afraid of the job market, etc.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#374
post #294

People strongly want to believe that intelligence doesn't have a strong genetic component, I think mainly for moral reasons. If not everyone can be expected to learn and be proficient in everything due to genetics, then suddenly merit itself is also based strongly on luck, and now the belief that people with greater merit should have better lives no longer seems fair. Intelligence is now just another gift to the fort…

> People strongly want to believe that intelligence doesn't have a strong genetic component, I think mainly for moral reasons. More so because there is no proof for that. Individuals exhibit different levels of intelligence. Sure, life is unfair. However, individuals do not necessarily inherit intelligence from their parents' genes. Seriously, who could think that you could build a lineage of "gifted persons" solely…

> gifted persons" solely by genetically selecting the parents among the population of "gifted persons"?

Yes, this is why top schools are designed to segregate out stupid people - positive eugenics.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sprang to my mind when I read the arbitrarily response is that you have equally little control over the genes you’re born with as you do the place, time, family, society, economy, technology, and culture you’re born in to.

Also, I meant to add: > How is this any different from saying "all is one, separateness is an illusion"? > It's not arbitrary. "Other causative factors" is boundless. These are distinctly different lines on inquiry. One is an inquiry to in the illusory nature of separateness, the other is an inquire in to the boundless nature of causative factors.

[deleted]

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sprang to my mind when I read the arbitrarily response is that you have equally little control over the genes you’re born with as you do the place, time, family, society, economy, technology, and culture you’re born in to.

Also, I meant to add: > How is this any different from saying "all is one, separateness is an illusion"? > It's not arbitrary. "Other causative factors" is boundless. These are distinctly different lines on inquiry. One is an inquiry to in the illusory nature of separateness, the other is an inquire in to the boundless nature of causative factors.

Wow, thanks! That's a wonderfully succinct way of putting it.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#377

Sperm banks select highly-educated males (i.e. recruiting at Stanford and Harvard) for sperm donors, so it seems obvious that most people know there is a hereditary component.

Sperm banks select highly educated donors because clients are willing to pay for it. That's all. You are describing capitalism. It's not like these clients are running double blind studies in their wombs.

This is true, and why people like me are considered inherently unworthy. You’re both saying the same thing?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#378

Even if progressives can be convinced that genetics matters (re-using the OPs title), what next? In how far shall this insight be used to re-consider our living-together? Shall this lead to a scientifically backed reason to stigmatize groups? Shall this lead to a blessed segregation of people? Would this lead to a better co-existance of people or a worse one?

We already segregate people based on intelligence, it’s called selective school admissions (and Google HC). People like me are left out for good reason - we simply are genetically defective.

Unfortunately I don’t see much way out of this outside of exiting society (and perhaps life) permanently.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#379
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I found very large improvements in working memory from taking 20-minute afternoon naps Sure. My ability to do anything also drops to near zero if I don't sleep enough. Yet I have not found unlimited increases in capability if sleep more and more... > modafinil Yeah, drugs are a quite different beast. Doping happens when individual athlete realizes they have hit the limits what their "natural" biology can do and yet…

Yeah, the drawback of modafinil is that it seems to reduce my ability to recall things from long -term memory. Also, it makes it hard to switch tasks when it's necessary.

There is something called U-shaped response, with stimulants.

If you are functioning at the optimal point - stimulants will only make your performance worse.

You are likely sleep deprived, for whatever reason. That's all.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have genetic talent - they didn’t just train harder than their middle school mates who were out of breath Who knows if it was only due to genes? And more importantly, there isn't a gene that's about running faster. (sure, some genes are helpful and might get you in front - not discounting the work the athlete goes through) Getting to the podium is a mix of several characteristics: Some people might be more prone to…

Gene for running faster: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2017.0108... Amusingly, it is literally what you are writing about. Certain variants of that gene confer exactly a) better recovery b) sports injury resistance c) fast twitch fiber synthesis. Simply because we have not pinpointed something with laser precision, propagated the knowledge to every human with internet access and papered it up wit…

> just a tiny 2% difference - and you would end up a dolphin

This is weirdly specific and I'm pretty sure my brain is going to remember this and bring it up on random occasions for the next ten years.

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