How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#701

Post by jhgb » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #137

chmod775 wrote: post #6

Fundamentally languages have been evolving in a reductive manner, which is why adding syllables to terms like in "Latino/Latina -> Latin-x -> Latinx+" won't last. People will quickly eschew these terms for things that are easier to pronounce. There's no malice in this - just a natural evolution of language towards efficiency. As such its an endless cycle: new stuff is introduced to everyday language then reduced to s…

Gendered nouns are kind of silly and antiquated when you think about it though, and many languages have a neuter gender too (e.g. German). The "X" suffix is an attempt by younger Spanish speakers to introduce a neuter gender to their native language. English doesn't have gendered nouns, but we do have gendered pronouns, which not all languages have. Chinese doesn't have gendered pronouns, which is why you'll often he…

> Gendered nouns are kind of silly and antiquated when you think about it though

No, they're not. In WALS (https://wals.info/chapter/30), almost half of the languages have gendered nouns.

> Today, young English speakers are trying to popularize "they" as an English neuter pronoun, and it's not too absurd: we already use "they" this way when the gender of the person is unknown. For example, if you found a random wallet, you might say, "Someone lost their wallet," and it would be acceptable.

It's actually reasonably weird to propose since usages historically mattered. Also that's what gives you collocations, idioms, etc. If you look at grammars of English, you find plenty of examples of similar generalizations that people consistently refuse to make, such as the lack of "I could X" in the sense of "I was able to X", even though though nobody bats an eye at "I couldn't X" in the sense of "I wasn't able to X".

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#702

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #665

karmelapple wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a few concrete examples of large groups strongly advocating for equality of outcomes? I’ve had discussions about “equality” with folks aligned across the political spectrum, and most everyone agrees they want equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. I’m confused about who or what group is speaking about people desiring equality of outcome. And discriminating against other people because of their…

I think people generally know enough to argue/speak in favor of equality of opportunity, but many of the actions appear to be “of outcome”. In many cases, you can take a view (and craft an argument) that a particular action is one or the other, depending on whether or not you agree with it. Take admission standards for colleges. Some colleges (at least as I understand it) are requiring higher SAT scores for Asians th…

I do not think it is a mix of both. It is an equality of outcome pushed because the solution to equality of opportunity is considered too expensive (massive wealth transfers that may or may not be able to fix broken homes/families/communities).

Opportunities compound, so they will lead to wide gaps in outcomes, so I do not see any solution other than to reduce the income/wealth gap to reduce that inevitable gap in opportunity of outcome.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#703

Post by vidarh » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

darksaints wrote: post #691

refenestrator wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only correct this so many times, so here's my drop into the ocean on this thread: The paradox of tolerance is that if you're too tolerant to nazis, they might take over everything and you wind up with less tolerance. It is NOT a get out of jail free card for "you don't have to be tolerant to people that you label as intolerant, in fact terminate them with prejudice". You need a credible threat of the 'bad peopl…

We live in a democratic society. Intolerant ideas, held en masse, have a way of becoming laws. It is worth fighting them, even if they're not wearing swastikas.

"Wokeness" is a reaction to intolerant ideas, that are indeed worth fighting.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#704

Post by Zababa » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #601

frankbreetz wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent said in his comment, the teachings made his brown skinned child feel inferior, and he didn't feel this way as a child with the old way of teaching.

I see. The pedagogy is flawed if it's raising that question without answering it, but not for raising the question at all; the unfortunate truth of at least living in the US is she's going to deal with a lot of assholes who believe those sorts of things. It's not at all inappropriate to prepare students for that by arming them with better answers. I also went to school in Virginia. The old way of teaching (at least i…

I think the key part here is "pretend these factors didn't exist at all". I think answering questions when they are raised is very important, and I agree with you that kids are perceptive. On the other hand, they should also be offered a chance to live without thinking about that if it's possible.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#705

Post by beerandt » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

ahallock wrote: post #698

The "woke" movement uses the same tactics as religions. Followers try to shame you and offer absolution for your original sin of racism or transphobia. There are different sects of wokeness, similar to denominations in the Christian Church. It's also a form of mob mentality and bullying. Corporations, unsurprisingly, have also jumped on the trend.

Anyone who doesn't have a (or acknowledge their) religion is really just oblivious to what theirs really is.

religion being the loose/broad definition, and not necessarily (but sometimes) the dogmatic and organized big R Religion.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#706

Post by ptr2voidStar » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #484

jasonlotito wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you suggest that wasn’t tried before? Conversations, education, peaceful protests, etc. None worked as well as this. If someone is punching you in the face every single day, and nothing you try that’s non violent works, but suddenly you get results when you push back, wouldn’t you employ that method? Sure, it hurts the person punching you, but they were punching you.

I would agree with that. You only slip and evade so many punches before you strike back. Many of these things took a lot of effort. Examples were suffrage in Switzerland, only approved in 1971(by male voters). Sounds crazy, the UK suffragettes got their way between WW1 and WW2, it's pretty shameful that Some anti homosexuality laws have been passed after that. The same conservative outlets who point fingers at the Ta…

> The Dutch simplified the most useful rule in the 17th century: "live and let live", it was codified into (maritime) law.

Would that happen to be the same Dutch that were heavily involved in the slave trade (about the same time you mention)?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#707

Post by gavinray » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

babyshake wrote: post #28

It definitely seems as though specifying your preferred gender pronouns is no longer optional. This is required "in solidarity". Being an otherwise progressive person, I don't feel great about this and how quickly it happened.

If a company asked this I would put "gavinray [I don't give a flying fuck what you call me]".

Happy to use other people's pronouns if it makes them happy, it really makes no difference to me, and clearly it's a big deal to some people so I've no problem obliging.

But if you ask for something this stupid, company-wide, IMO you're due what you ask for.

Because there's my pronoun. Call me he/she/they, or a goddamn Attack Helicopter, I really don't care.

I have had to go out of my way to break the habitual "Hey guys" -> "Hey all/Hey folks" though, and I don't find that one unreasonable.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#708

Post by daenz » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

ahallock wrote: post #698

The "woke" movement uses the same tactics as religions. Followers try to shame you and offer absolution for your original sin of racism or transphobia. There are different sects of wokeness, similar to denominations in the Christian Church. It's also a form of mob mentality and bullying. Corporations, unsurprisingly, have also jumped on the trend.

Religion minus the formal concept of God. In other words a democratic religion, where the rules have no grounding in an externality, and can change rapidly based on who currently has influence.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#709

Post by inkblotuniverse » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

jensensbutton wrote: post #663

esja wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word being used nowadays is "equity", and it's everywhere. Almost every large institution is pushing this. It explicitly means equal outcomes, not equal opportunities.

Equity absolutely does not means equal outcomes. According to Merriam Webster it means "fairness or justice in the way people are treated". Seems more like you have conflated its meaning in reaction to a movement you don't like.

It does mean equality of outcomes among the people who use the word:

"Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome. Nov 5, 2020"

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#710

Post by tango-unchained » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #549

Our political and cultural institutions are dominated by people who attended those elite schools. This is the next batch of folks who will be doing your IPO paperwork: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... Now it’s making the jump to K-12. My second grader is apparently learning how to develop an “identity” around her “skin tone” (according to an email from her teacher). This has had the pre…

> This is the next batch of folks who will be doing your IPO paperwork:

No these are not the next batch of people filling out your IPO... that article you picked is like half a dozen randos attending an optional one time event that from the selective information they gave doesn't even seem to represent progressive views. Then soundbites were taken out of context by a hardline conservative outlet and you were told that this is what the left stands for. Can you honestly tell me that you believe progressives want to mandate that you begin every day chanting "i am tango-unchained and i am racist"?

Back to the article, what did the rest of that conversation look like besides a single screenshot? Is there any context where it might make sense to say "i am racist" without literally wearing a white hood. Maybe those words are being used to capture concepts that are more difficult to explain than firing someone based on the color of their skin or telling your daughter she shouldn't marry outside her race. These aren't dumb people and they made the decision themselves to say these things and I'm sure had good reasons that made sense in the moment.

The professor screenshotted here has like 22 years of legal teaching experience. Don't you think there's a chance he was having an interesting conversation about intellectual concepts and was taken out of context? That article you posted never asked these questions or got the "other side" and asked him to explain himself. Instead we just have quotes from a few conservatives that were offended by the training. It kind of reveals the purpose of this article.

It's fine to have ideological disagreements, but to frame this article as representing a movement let alone a generation of thinking is dishonest and hysterical.