How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#611

Post by praestigiare » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

foolinaround wrote: post #550

praestigiare wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a significant difference in that woke, like SJW, is for the most part a derogatory term. It would be as if the word "christian" was a word created by athiests specifically to refer to those who did not practice what they preached. Any discussion of the merits of "wokeness" is approaching the subject in a biased and unproductive way. I would suggest that those you would describe as woke have, on average, just…

> It would be as if the word "christian" was a word created by athiests specifically to refer to those who did not practice what they preached. May off-topic, but it might be interesting to note that 'christian' was similarly not something the Christians called themselves, but were derisively called that by others as in "followers of Christ or Messiah' alluding to the fact that they followed Jesus who proclaimed hims…

It's a good point, and I did consider noting that at one time this was also true for the word christian. But I think we agree that this is not the case now.

There are several considerations that underpin my own thinking on social justice, but perhaps most relevant here is the concept of competing freedoms. It's easy to say that your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, but the debate over hate speech is much more controversial. In the case of personal threats or libel, we do have a history of recognizing that there are potentially competing freedoms at stake when it comes to certain kinds of speech. We can productively disagree on how to balance these freedoms - even at the extremes - but the caricature of wokeness pretends that I don't care about freedom of speech at all, while simultaneously dismissing that there may be competing freedoms worth considering. I personally believe that freedom of speech outweighs the freedom to live unencumbered by impersonal threats and libel - but I also acknowledge the damage that allows, and believe we should consider ways to minimize or compensate for it.

This applies to my example of sexual harassment, but in that case with what I will call "soft freedoms." That is to say, the hypothetical harasser does not have a right to work at that company, and the hypothetical victims do not have a right to not see a particular person. In a perfect world, a reformed harasser could return to work and get a second chance, and those they worked with could feel secure and safe. Given that we do not live in this perfect world, there is a choice in how to balance these soft freedoms. I think we might disagree on where to place this particular line, but probably not by very much. But the "anti-woke" would have you believe that I think that anyone who was accused of the slightest transgression should be fired.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#612

Post by motohagiography » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

It is by design. The viral idea behind intersectionality is that people are easier to manage both as interchangeable representatives of arbitrary group identities, and the consequent alienation and anxiety politically neutralizes them as potential opponents to their managers agenda. The tactic itself practically ancient, and the theory that scales it is just over a century old. It literally exploits social tolerance as weakness the same way that you can manipulate individuals by their agreeableness.

We've got a late stage 3 case of it, with new intersectional groups being added every year, and they iterate to isolate the individual from any coherent belief or relationship beyond an ever shifting narrative of political expediency. Since the idea is viral, there is no direct confrontation against it other than to isolate the infected until the disease runs its course or they expire, or a chemotherapy approach, which requires an equivalent and improbable amount of co-ordination and viral spread, usually with unacceptable costs. Like the plot of every zombie movie ever, it's a periodic generational plague.

A great example of new intersectional groups is how it's absolutely fine to publish that the unvaxxed are sacrificing our children for their far right beliefs, which until recently was called "the blood libel." A useful self test is, if you're cool with the blood libel, you may already be a zombie. The only question is whether you will self-treat with personal reflection, or join the shuffling mass of the damned in their hunt for brains and thirst for blood.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#613

Post by mchusma » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

Its interesting that the political spectrum has shifted in the US.

It used to be that the Republican party was economically liberal (by this I mean "less government") and socially conservative (by this I mean "more restrictive".

The Democratic party was the opposite.

This was always a very odd coalition of ideas, as libertarians were quick to point out. The parties should probably be "more government" versus "less government"

Suddenly, over the last few years and once they "won" around issues like gay marriage, it's become apparent that the Democratic party is now socially conservative. The woke movement is really a new breed of "conservative" movement.

The Republican party still seems a bit in shambles, but they may ultimately find themselves coalescing around libertarian ideas.

Although right now it appears both parties are for "more government" and "even more government". (For example immigration under Trump and Biden are similar, both spent massively, etc).

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#614

Post by vidarh » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

Where is there mercy and grace in being unwilling to make an effort to show the utterly minimal respect of e.g. addressing them how they prefer?

There's a ruthlessness to it in large part because of a recognition from many that asking nicely has been met with immense vitriol, anger, even violence in some cases. At some point you stop asking and start demanding.

See also Karl Poppers paradox of tolerance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#615

Post by UK-Al05 » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #297

More importantly, when did American culture war nonsense infect The Economist? Do they really have a regular 'illiberal left' column these days?

The philosophy of the Economist magazine could be defined as liberalism. So they're probably hyper sensitive anti liberal ideas.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#616

Post by mikojan » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

abvdasker wrote: post #608

> When invited speeches from people such as Christine Lagarde, then head of the International Monetary Fund, were cancelled after student activists accused her of complicity in “imperialist and patriarchal systems”, the response was a collective shrug. This is a straw man. People have been protesting the IMF nonstop since the 90s and I guarantee patriarchy is not the main thing they complain about. Arguably the entir…

The Economist, as a matter of principle, does not specify authors.

(As a matter of principle, I ignore The Economist in turn.)

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#617

Post by UK-Al05 » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

keewee7 wrote: post #130

Many Millennials now have very high-paying and influential jobs but still hold the very anti-capitalist and anti-billionaire views they had during the height of the Occupy Wall Street movement. It will be interesting how corporations will react to a new generation of Millennial managers and leaders who seek to undermine capitalism.

Hypocrisy of the highest order. Complain about wealth inequality, while at the same time seek higher paid managerial jobs.

Either your ok with wealth inequality, or start asking for salary to be spread around your team and sub teams.

I'm a liberal market capitalist, I'm ok with wealth inequality. What I can't stand are my peers who seek bonuses, extra salary, and ways to increase profitability but at the same time complain about wealth inequality.

I don't mind old school hippy socialists because they at least follow their own ideas.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#618

Post by refenestrator » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #614

p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

Where is there mercy and grace in being unwilling to make an effort to show the utterly minimal respect of e.g. addressing them how they prefer? There's a ruthlessness to it in large part because of a recognition from many that asking nicely has been met with immense vitriol, anger, even violence in some cases. At some point you stop asking and start demanding. See also Karl Poppers paradox of tolerance: https://en.w…

I can only correct this so many times, so here's my drop into the ocean on this thread:

The paradox of tolerance is that if you're too tolerant to nazis, they might take over everything and you wind up with less tolerance.

It is NOT a get out of jail free card for "you don't have to be tolerant to people that you label as intolerant, in fact terminate them with prejudice". You need a credible threat of the 'bad people' taking over and limiting tolerance for it to hold together.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#619

Post by burntoutfire » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

lemmsjid wrote: post #367

_zamorano_ wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spaniard here. Here, If you are aware of new wokeness trends in the US is question of about 3 months until the spanish left and media start parroting the new word, idea or whatever. The consumed culture is overwhelmingly US based. Netflix, social media... The local shows that happen to succeed, mostly are created due to legal obligations imposed by the goverment. If it were not for that...

An obervation, though, is that the academic underpinnings of the “wokeness trends” you’re describing were very explicitly leveraging modern French philosophers. Don’t pretend Continental thinking did not have a string influence on the situation :). That’s to your first paragraph, I quite share your thoughts on your second one.

It just happened during the transition from French to American cultural domination.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#620

Post by burntoutfire » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #144

burntoutfire wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have adopted burgers, coca-cola, Hollywood movies etc. from The Current Dominant Culture, why wouldn't they parrot things like woke pronouns.

>The Current Dominant Culture Haha, travel more buddy, the dominant culture is the country's own culture, not the one from the US. You know, the US adapted Beer and Sushi too. BTW: Movies, Games and "Social-media" is NOT Culture but cheap entertainment.

I've been to dozen or so foreign countries, and everywhere I see establishments named in English (or even named "Hold the Door" or "Central Perk" - based on American popculture). Another example - quite suddenly, people in Poland started eating steaks and drinking whiskey - something that just wasn't done even 15 years ago.

Oh and the leading newspapers basically parrot a lot of what they themselves read in New York Times, incl. doing interviews with American book writers or even discussing American racial issues (hard to find an international issue less relevant than that to people on the ground in Poland) etc. That's also partly because most of them don't know say German, French or Italian, so they can't really be influenced by those cultures quite as strongly.