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How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

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Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#641

Post by PontifexMinimus »

GavinMcG wrote: post #514
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the woke philosophy the criterion for deserving forgiveness still exists but is changed. In classical Christian philosophy, forgiveness requires contrition whereas under woke philosophy forgiveness requires powerlessness . This is often misinterpreted as an absence of forgiveness because no amount of contrition seems to abate the condemnation.

I think you're redefining things. Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. Powerlessness doesn't abate the condemnation either, after all. Instead, these people who refuse to forgive do so because they feel that forgiveness has been used to excuse abuse (read broadly) and to keep abusers in power. In other words, it's all about power , and forgiveness just doesn't fea…

> Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness.

I agree. Wokism is protestant Christianity without foregivness: https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#642

Post by refenestrator »

vidarh wrote: post #628
refenestrator wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only correct this so many times, so here's my drop into the ocean on this thread: The paradox of tolerance is that if you're too tolerant to nazis, they might take over everything and you wind up with less tolerance. It is NOT a get out of jail free card for "you don't have to be tolerant to people that you label as intolerant, in fact terminate them with prejudice". You need a credible threat of the 'bad peopl…

You're not "correcting" anything. You're misrepresenting the intent to try to reduce the scope of it. Popper did not target just authoritarianism, but intolerance in general. He's arguing that, sure, being prepared to use force is a last resort, but he's also arguing that the intolerant must be met by arguments and kept in check by public opinion if possible. I'm sure some extremists would like to use violence agains…

I'm absolutely trying to reduce the scope from what it has become.

It has become, "person I don't like is intolerant, according to me, and hey paradox of tolerance, therefore I will persecute them with no quarter and no decency". Did you see some of the crazy cancellation stories last summer? One guy was ruined for saying "please don't burn down buildings, especially right next to my house": https://reason.com/2021/06/15/daniel-elder-cancel-culture-ch...

If you think you've found a loophole that enables you to be a McCarthyist rooting out evil, you're the bad guy.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#643

Post by angelzen »

nonameiguess wrote: post #418
p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

You may personally believe in mercy and grace and not forcing people to be Christian, but historically, the entire reason Christianity is so prevalent is Christians traveled to other continents with guns and forcibly slaughtered or enslaved the natives if they didn't convert and took their children away and forced them into Christian schools. Whatever you think of "wokeness," it isn't anywhere near a level of world-c…

Have you visited any American school recently? No cross in sight, but plenty of rainbow flags. Not sure about the gunpoint (in both historical and contemporary sides of the argument), but mass conversion it is.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#644

Post by MontagFTB »

trident5000 wrote: post #610
rayiner wrote: post #549

Our political and cultural institutions are dominated by people who attended those elite schools. This is the next batch of folks who will be doing your IPO paperwork: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... Now it’s making the jump to K-12. My second grader is apparently learning how to develop an “identity” around her “skin tone” (according to an email from her teacher). This has had the pre…

IPO's will go extinct with crypto. People are not going to pay a bunch of bloated banker fees when they can just mint equity share coins (ICO) and get an accountant to do the paper work. Road show? The internet does it better and listings/information will be transparent and easily accessible. Not here to promote crypto just saying the IPO process seems like its days are numbered. edit: HN fights any mention of crypto…

This belongs on shlinkedin.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#646

Post by trident5000 »

MontagFTB wrote: post #644
trident5000 wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IPO's will go extinct with crypto. People are not going to pay a bunch of bloated banker fees when they can just mint equity share coins (ICO) and get an accountant to do the paper work. Road show? The internet does it better and listings/information will be transparent and easily accessible. Not here to promote crypto just saying the IPO process seems like its days are numbered. edit: HN fights any mention of crypto…

This belongs on shlinkedin.

:(

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#647

Post by _fat_santa »

slibhb wrote: post #507

I think "wokeness" comes not so much from "safetyism" but from a generation who were educated to be critical of their own society. They were raised and educated by ex-hippies, who had successfully critiqued the post-war US. I think this was a pedagogical crime (raising children to be critical). Every generation is supposed to critique its predecessor but teaching critique to children from a young age robbed them of t…

> This is why "wokeness" strikes so many as performative

I think part of the reason is many of the talking points I would call "ominous". Take for example the Civil Rights movement or Women's Suffrage. Looking back at them, they had clear goals and clear talking points, you could read their message and see where they were trying to go, what their ultimate goal was.

Wokeness on the other hand does not seem to have the same goals. Take the classic "ending systemic racism" goal. Ok fine, lets end systemic racism, how do we start? Where can we find it? On you see, if you don't know what systemic racism is then you have no hope of solving it. Oh you see, you're white so systemic racism is in you, so it's not a problem that you can solve.

I would say that unlike previous movements, the goal of Wokeness isn't to solve a problem in society, it's a "movement" you join for likes on Instagram, comments on Facebook, and upvotes on Reddit.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#648

Post by thinkingemote »

PontifexMinimus wrote: post #641
GavinMcG wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're redefining things. Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. Powerlessness doesn't abate the condemnation either, after all. Instead, these people who refuse to forgive do so because they feel that forgiveness has been used to excuse abuse (read broadly) and to keep abusers in power. In other words, it's all about power , and forgiveness just doesn't fea…

> Since no amount of contrition abates the condemnation, there is an absence of forgiveness. I agree. Wokism is protestant Christianity without foregivness: https://pontifex.substack.com/p/no-redemption-for-the-woke

Worth also noticing that it comes from the USA where justice is punishment and vindication for the victim. It's why victims and their families are invited to be present when a criminal is killed via the death penalty, and ex cons can't vote. Eye for an eye is very American.

Is it old protestant and puritan? Possibly, I'm not sure of the origins.

Even the Soviets thoughts that prisoners could be rehabilitated (in principle), and we can consider the Nordic prison model for a more contemporary example. Even English criminology is more about reform than punishment. Often victims feel sidelined because of this.

American justice in general doesn't have this sense of rehabilitation being more important than vindication. Justice is retribution by the victim on both right and left wings. I posit that this is why the US is struggling with the "woke", it's because the methods and tactics are seen as normal.

Explains a lot about the foreign policy too...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#649

Post by SamPatt »

shadowgovt wrote: post #601
frankbreetz wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent said in his comment, the teachings made his brown skinned child feel inferior, and he didn't feel this way as a child with the old way of teaching.

I see. The pedagogy is flawed if it's raising that question without answering it, but not for raising the question at all; the unfortunate truth of at least living in the US is she's going to deal with a lot of assholes who believe those sorts of things. It's not at all inappropriate to prepare students for that by arming them with better answers. I also went to school in Virginia. The old way of teaching (at least i…

Is school the appropriate place to try to cure all society's ailments though?

Empirically it doesn't seem to have worked, even if you think it should be attempted.

But I'm skeptical that it's even wise to attempt. Education isn't the same thing as moral instruction. We want secular schools not pseudo-churches.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#650

Post by michaelcampbell »

trident5000 wrote: post #610
rayiner wrote: post #549

Our political and cultural institutions are dominated by people who attended those elite schools. This is the next batch of folks who will be doing your IPO paperwork: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... Now it’s making the jump to K-12. My second grader is apparently learning how to develop an “identity” around her “skin tone” (according to an email from her teacher). This has had the pre…

IPO's will go extinct with crypto. People are not going to pay a bunch of bloated banker fees when they can just mint equity share coins (ICO) and get an accountant to do the paper work. Road show? The internet does it better and listings/information will be transparent and easily accessible. Not here to promote crypto just saying the IPO process seems like its days are numbered. edit: HN fights any mention of crypto…

Just like cassettes and VCR's killed the media industry.
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