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How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

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Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#391

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

'Woke' is illiberal. A lot of the ideas behind it attack liberalism as they see at enabling the status quo as opposed to action for change.

Edit: Why are people down voting me? Critical theories are very open about their critique of liberalism and rationality? And how they've led to lack of change. It's not some weird conspiracy.

I personally think it's not worth it to abandon liberal ideas. As suddenly you validate a lot of illiberal politics. It allows for authoritarianism. I can't stand inconsistencies.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#392

On a related point, what I'm uncertain about are the reasons for the increase in transgender kids in the west. I understand there's been a massive increase in cases for transmen in the UK and USA for example. Is this because we can identify these conditions much better now? Maybe. I don't have the background to say for sure. There is a real fear in society though that woke schools of thought are a harmful influence t…

It's not a new thing. In some parts of the world at least transgendered women typically transitioned during their puberty, at 13 or 14. A great source for this observation is 'Travesti: Sex, Gender and Culture among Brazilian Transgendered Prostitutes' by anthropologist Don Kulick, who followed a group of trans sex workers in Salvador. Most of them transition from young boys to teenage sex workers after a sexual encounter with an adult male. From personal (though anecdotal) experience this is a common pattern in many cultures of the so-called Global South, if we include in that South East Asia. Basically for most of the 20th century, most transwomen who transitioned, transitioned in their puberty and went straight into sex work.

What has changed recently is that many more trans women transition later in life, after having lived for many decades as men, having married and had children and careers well outside sex work etc. Perhaps because of a more general shift of ideas about gender and sexuality (gay men are nowadays not considered effeminate or feminine just because they fancy men) most transwomen in western countries were generally of this later kind.

Then the wheel shifted again. My guess (and it's just a guess) is that the number of people transitioning later in life and in a context that had nothing to do with underage sex and sex work, helped convince society that transition does not have to mean sex work (although in most of the world, it still does, by and large, so what I say applies to more western societies) and that gave more space to younger trans women and also young trans men to express their identity without fearing that a life of humiliation and inevitable sex work awaited them.

In my part of the world, when I was transitioning in the late 90's a trans woman who was not into sex work was something unheard of and indeed I had to immigrate to be able to do anything with my life. As to concerns about giving young children puberty blockers etc, I would have to say that this is much better than 13 year olds taking cross-sex hormones without medical supervision and then going to the red light district to display their budding breasts with pride.

I hope all this doesn't come across as "wokeness". My concern about other trans women has always been the limited opportunities they've had in life, in my part of the world, and the squalid, degrading and dangerous conditions in which they had to survive as a result (google a bit about the transgendered community in Istanbul if you have strong nerves). I tend to think of all the outrage about identity issues on Twitter as a pleasant change of tone from the grim darkness that was before.

A link to that book:

https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/T/bo362138...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#393

On a related point, what I'm uncertain about are the reasons for the increase in transgender kids in the west. I understand there's been a massive increase in cases for transmen in the UK and USA for example. Is this because we can identify these conditions much better now? Maybe. I don't have the background to say for sure. There is a real fear in society though that woke schools of thought are a harmful influence t…

Alternative explanation: there have always been as many transgender kids, but they hid it because they knew they'd get bullied by everyone, including their own parents.

If social stigma is no longer an issue, why aren't we seeing transitioning across the entire adult population in equal proportion, and not primarily in children?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#394
Can someone explain to me (controversial, I know - but we've already opened Pandora's box):

If the category "transgender" is legally recognized, why does the category "transracial" come under such virulent attack?

Both (in my view), are manifestations of a disposition that induces a "distortion of reality" alongside a refusal to accept that "one's reality is distorted".

In most (if not all cases) of male to female transitions (which seem to be the most vocal segment of the transgender community) - the human brain is able to instantly recognize the gender of an approaching person - from a considerable distance, regardless of choice of clothing or make up.

Likewise, someone claiming to be of a different "race", say "white" to "yellow", "red" or "black" (or any permutation thereof), is laughably recognizable as an "interloper".

So why is one form of delusion celebrated, whilst another form frowned upon?

Side Note: when talking about race (which is a color based hierarchy, I deliberately assigned racial colors uniformly to everyone, even though I'm aware that some might find it offensive to be referred to by skin color; what is good for the goose, is surely good for the gander. I believe in equality).

[Edited]: innumerable typographical and auto-correct errors whilst commenting on my phone.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#395
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have adopted burgers, coca-cola, Hollywood movies etc. from The Current Dominant Culture, why wouldn't they parrot things like woke pronouns.

> why wouldn't they parrot things like woke pronouns Because different languages have different pronouns. You don't adopt function words into your language the same way you can adopt content words (unless you're, for example, code switching, but even then you don't switch for a single function word).

Funnily enough, the words “they” and “them” were adopted into English from a foreign language (Old Norse).

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#396

On a related point, what I'm uncertain about are the reasons for the increase in transgender kids in the west. I understand there's been a massive increase in cases for transmen in the UK and USA for example. Is this because we can identify these conditions much better now? Maybe. I don't have the background to say for sure. There is a real fear in society though that woke schools of thought are a harmful influence t…

Anecdotally, in the startup where I worked there was one summer in 2017 when 3 white women (a significant percent of the women in the office at the time) all suddenly came out as non-binary and asked to be called they/them. If that's not some kind of freaky bandwagon thing going on then I don't know what is. It was like a competition to see who could get the most oppression points or something. Now I'm in a different…

In Spain this thing is not quite of the same dimension (even though there's a lot of propaganda being pumped by leftist parties) but I already encountered some cases.

Also, I'm hearing more and more what It would be conservative opinions from the gay people I have more trust with. Which is quite unexpected for me.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#397

Can someone explain to me (controversial, I know - but we've already opened Pandora's box): If the category "transgender" is legally recognized, why does the category "transracial" come under such virulent attack? Both (in my view), are manifestations of a disposition that induces a "distortion of reality" alongside a refusal to accept that "one's reality is distorted". In most (if not all cases) of male to female tr…

[deleted]

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#398
post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

> Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness?

Friend, to be frank, I don't see any way that beliefs in providence and deferred reward can even begin to explain economics. (And I daresay this is by intent.)

Consider this definition from the article:

> injustice will persist until systems of language and privilege are dismantled

From a clear reading of history and world events, you can see that terrible wrongs have been mercilessly committed for profit. Today, if it is hard to discuss these problems, it is in part because the topics have been so well buried, and honest discourse is a forgotten social principle, replaced by social media.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#399

On a related point, what I'm uncertain about are the reasons for the increase in transgender kids in the west. I understand there's been a massive increase in cases for transmen in the UK and USA for example. Is this because we can identify these conditions much better now? Maybe. I don't have the background to say for sure. There is a real fear in society though that woke schools of thought are a harmful influence t…

I understand this might get downvoted and while I agree with the parent I also blame the contraceptive pill, dysregulation of hormone systems (various reasons), environmental toxins and the general malleability of people when it comes to sexuality at very young ages and for reasons we don’t understand. In my father’s generation the vast majority of men by the time they were 25 years old could grown thick beards now I…

There seemingly are some environmental factors out there diluting testosterone levels (certain plastic seem like a risk, for instance), but pubescent boys are not taking contraceptive. That's a weird specific bogeyman to call out.

Don't downplay the influence of interracial mixing in the Americas, where I will perhaps incorrectly assume you live. Large amounts of body hair are not a universal male trait. Europeans and Mediterraneans are much hairier than Native Americans. If your ancestors were mostly on one side of that, then sure, they were hairier. Many of my more distant ancestors had no body hair at all.

You may notice a tradeoff here, as the same sensitivity to DHT in your hair follicles that causes facial hair to proliferate also causes male pattern baldness, and Europeans go bald much more often.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#400
Can someone explain what wokeness actually means? I mean the article is full of quotations that are somehow taken out of context, I don't quite understand what this movements principles are, what it wants, what its methods are.
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