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Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

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Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#191

Post by js8 »

shoo wrote: post #104
karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

Jennifer Senior's excellent article on burnout, "Can’t Get No Satisfaction" [1], contains this gem of a quote, from psychotherapist & burned-out burnout researcher Prof Barry Farber: > [...] their level of caring couldn’t be sustained in the absence of results > Farber often calls burnout “the gap between expectation and reward,” Also: > “My clients are perfectionists,” says Alden Cass, a therapist to both corporate…

“That happiness equals reality divided by expectations.”

I really like this way to put it. Lots of people, who talk about how our happiness is driven by our expectations, are politically on the right and emphasizing the idea of personal responsibility. But putting the reality into the numerator, we can also recognize that there might be systemic problems with the "reality" itself, for example social inequality or lack of inclusivity.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#192

Post by jpswade »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

Burnout is something that is discussed quite a lot, but people talk about it as working so hard that you fatigue.

When we're working on something we enjoy and find interesting, when we have a plan and a goal, we find that we have infinite energy.

Burnout on the other hand is when no matter how much you seem to work, it has no impact. You don't seem to be making any progress. Burnout is the loss of momentum.

“Improved productivity also helps drive better employee work/life balance and reduces burnout“ - The State of DevOps 2019.

According to the DORA research program, avoiding heavyweight change processes and creating an environment of continuous delivery go a long way to reducing burnout.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#193

Post by wccrawford »

jrockway wrote: post #109
labster wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last job implemented an unlimited PTO policy. In 2020, I took about 7 days off, and worked at least 20 days on weekends. With the increased responsibilities, there just wasn’t any time that was good to leave… until I left for good. It was definitely a factor in my current burnout. The funny thing was before the VCs bought the company, I had two weeks but in practice could ask the CTO for as much time as I wanted.…

Yeah, if I ever start a company, mandatory vacation will be a thing. If you don't use up your 4 weeks of vacation before Thanksgiving, don't come to work for the rest of the year. Don't worry, there will still be work when you get back. Another thing I like are company holidays. When nobody is working, there is no email / code reviews / Slack to miss. That's a real vacation!

That'd be awesome, personally. I'd fail to use my 4 weeks every year, and always get December off, which is probably the most requested month for vacations.

If you want that policy to have teeth, maybe end the "year" on a month that few people want vacations, like February. (I'll pull that out of my arse, but it's less than December, I'm sure.)

That would cause them to actually schedule their vacation when they can use it and enjoy it, instead of sitting at home for a month with nothing to do when it crept up on them.

IMO, at least.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#194

Post by Sharlin »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #86
tinyhouse wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. Sorry for being blunt, but you clearly know very little about burnout (good for you). If people say that they are burned out because of a bad manager, believe them instead of saying they don't know what they are talking about. There are many reasons for burnout. Working on things that don't pay off is just one of them.

"you clearly know very little about burnout" You may disagree with my statement about the cause of burnout, and you may be correct about that. But it's unlikely you know enough about me to judge how much I know (or don't know) about burnout.

But you yourself made the same error, claiming that lots of people are simply mistaken about the causes of their burnouts and that you know their condition better than themselves.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#195

Post by wccrawford »

ineedasername wrote: post #75
thepasswordis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions end up punishing good workers and rewarding bad ones. Believe it or not, some people enjoy their job, and enjoy being able to excel at it.

Unions do sometimes make it hard to get rid of bad workers... not sure that's the same as "rewarding" them though. I can't think of examples of punishing good ones though. Union contracts frequently have defined procedures for requesting a merit pay increase with a mandatory review process, along with similar procedures for reclassification to a higher level position, also with more pay, when a person's scope of resp…

Getting to keep your job when you don't deserve it is absolutely a reward.

As for punishing good workers... I've heard plenty of stories where someone was really good at their job and they just needed some small thing done that they couldn't get the right department to do, so they did it themselves. The union jumped all over them because it's contractually obligated that the other department perform that function.

It was absolutely in the way of the "good worker" and they needed it to be done to improve their morale and get work flowing well. But their only choices were suffer through it, or be sanctioned for fixing it themselves.

That's the punishment.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#196

Post by corobo »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

The solution to burning out (not being able to work) is work?

What happens if that something doesn't succeed? You're just describing the day to day that caused the burnout haha

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#197

Post by wccrawford »

decebalus1 wrote: post #10

Bullshit. Vacation [1] IS the answer for burnout. Long vacations are even more ok for burnout. Sabbaticals are the most ok. Guess what a doctor would recommend you do if you're having health issues from burnout? If there's chronic burnout in your company/org then indeed, no amount of vacation will fix that. But neither would flexible work hours or mental health support. [1] Vacation means complete and total disconnec…

I will agree that a sufficiently long vacation is an answer to burnout.

It'll never prevent burnout, though, and having "job satisfaction" will, as many of the other commands are saying.

It's not a either-or situation. You should have both.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#198

Post by wccrawford »

hinkley wrote: post #22
eatonphil wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't assume that he meant anything like that. Digging into the company a bit: > Though results matter most and Technically Media prides itself on flexibility, as a guide, this role might expect to work roughly 40-45 hours a week. > Technically Media offers 10 paid holidays per year; 15 PTO days accrued per year with additional P TO offered progressively; as well as a month of paid parental leave. >Technically Med…

> this role might expect to work roughly 40-45 hours a week. I “expect” a lot of things that never happen.

And for any role that already expects to work more than 40 hours a week, I expect that that's a lie and it'll be more. And never 40.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#199

Post by wccrawford »

awsthro00945 wrote: post #134
stuff4ben wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

riiiighhhtt.... If it's that bad, you really should be looking elsewhere. But it's probably not that bad and you're just trying to save face for some HN karma. If you are that good you'd have no problem finding another job. But continue to play the victim here, no one really cares.

Save face? Are you under the impression that I have something to prove, or care about what you or HN thinks? This isn't reddit, I don't make comments with the intention of getting "upvotes" nor do I care how many I get. I posted a comment about vacation on a thread about vacation, trying to start up discussion. Then you came along and made a dumbass assumption about a situation you clearly have no insight or actual k…

I'm glad to hear that you're already looking for another job, because I was going to suggest that again, but without all the negativity from the other posts. You've clearly got the skills, both technical and soft skills, to do good work for someone who actually cares about you as a person, and not just a cog in the machine.

Good luck finding that job!

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#200

Post by throw0821374 »

Does preventing burn out come down to being paid (in cash/RSU's/etc) for the productive output of others ? If you are the one generating productive surplus for others, doesn't it become hard to justify the longer it goes on.

I do not understand how people can write in their resume that they helped their company generate $100 million revenue per year, while being paid < 1 million per year and not feel like they were taken for a ride.

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