Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores • Hacker News Board

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#231

Post by skybrian » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

neither_color wrote: post #78

floren wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SF city government seems to have realized that there's another way to make crime "go down": refuse to prosecute for anything, ideally make it pointless for the cops to even show up, until people stop bothering to report crime. Wow, shoplifting is at record lows!

We're approaching a strange post-empirical world where the right chart or graph can be used to justify any public policy, and often changing how the data for the chart is collected, analyzed and presented is easier than solving the issue. The collective anecdotes of thousands/millions of people can be dismissed because the chart says otherwise. Disagree that crime in your neighborhood has dropped? Just because your c…

That’s how it works online. You may be trusted by people you know in person, but here you’re just another random stranger, and we don’t know where you live anyway. Don’t take it personally.

Creating trusted data is a social process that many forums aren’t designed to facilitate.

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#232

Post by nkrisc » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:24 PM UTC

carstenhag wrote: post #194

legitster wrote: post #59

A friend of mine is a manager at a Safeway. He says a typical store might lose six figures worth of product in a year. In a bad neighborhood it's not uncommon to lose over a million dollars a year. They hire security personnel, but people figure out that a) even when security catches you, they are not allowed to restrain you and b) the police do not respond to shoplifters (in certain jurisdictions they are not allowe…

Why are they not allowed to restrain a shoplifter? In Germany, that's covered by the "anyone's" right: if you see someone commit a crime, you can detain/restrain them until the police arrives. Some restrictions apply, like for example having to watch the crime yourself etc but for shop security staff it's enough rights https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festnahme#Jedermann-Festnahme

There’s zero incentive for anyone to do so. Best case scenario they get a pat on the back. Worst case scenario they get killed or permanently injured/disabled. There’s no reason to put your life on the line for a corporation that will put nothing on the line for you.

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#233

Post by jmckib » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:26 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #209

sizzle wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s really scary, over a damn dollar?!? What was the context here if you don’t mind sharing, why one dollar and not your whole wallet? Why pull a gun?? Isn’t that a felony? Won’t police respond immediately to the report of someone threatening your life via brandishing a gun in public (more people in danger if not caught)?

Usually robbers pull the gun before determining how much money the victim has in their wallet. They could ask the potential victim first, and then, if the value is too low, not bother pulling a gun. But all potential victims have an incentive to lie and say they only have $1. Knowing that, a rational robber would pull a gun without requesting the info first. Regarding police responding immediately: you can't call the…

I was agreeing with your comment until I looked at the OP's reply, apparently the robber literally requested a single dollar. Super weird.

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#234

Post by tylerhou » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #13

Mods, please correct headline. This hardly a story about Amazon. It's a story of how Northern California's choice not to prosecute theft has resulted in a massive increase in criminal activity. That CVS has to privately hire security in the face of $10 million/year of goods being brazenly looted out of its stores has little to do with any Amazon policy and more to do with the policies adopted by local district attorn…

Any data to back up your claim (that rate of theft is positively caused by "less" prosecution)? Would like to see an analysis that controls for confounders as well (like effects from a pandemic).

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#235

Post by newsclues » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #172

baybal2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simpler way — just put all merchandise behind the glass. Any touching only with supervision of a store manager.

Then you need more staff. I was trying to buy some allergy spray at CVS, and couldn't get anyone to unlock the case. So I left and ordered it online from Costco, at 1/3 the price.

Stores can become large vending machines with minimal staff

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#236

Post by tylerhou » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:41 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #227

JackFr wrote: post #13

Mods, please correct headline. This hardly a story about Amazon. It's a story of how Northern California's choice not to prosecute theft has resulted in a massive increase in criminal activity. That CVS has to privately hire security in the face of $10 million/year of goods being brazenly looted out of its stores has little to do with any Amazon policy and more to do with the policies adopted by local district attorn…

> choice not to prosecute theft Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. "The judicial branch of California explains on its page about Prop 47 that the new law “reclassifies certain theft and drug possession offenses from felonies to misdemeanors.” Thanks to Prop 47, shoplifting offenses involving property valued at less than $950 are prosecuted as misdemeanors, not felonies, but they are still prosecuted. Such offenses are punisha…

Also worth noting that California's felony threshold is still much lower than most states (i.e. it's easier to get charged with a felony), including conservative ones that are usually "tough on crime." And the Bay Area's cost of living is higher as well.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/10/felony-threshol...

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#237

Post by technofiend » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:43 PM UTC

ChefboyOG wrote: post #176

valdiorn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but in Texas, how likely is the staff or the store owner to be armed, and actually confront you? No way that would happen in California. I keep thinking of this event that happened to me in the UK, where laws are equally useless at preventing theft, and staff are just powerless to do anything about it. I chased down a shoplifter. I cornered him in an alley. He stopped, looked at me, and this brief conversation took p…

...what? The average Texan, as it turns out, isn't literally Wyatt Earp. It would be shocking if a random Best Buy manager stopped a shoplifter with a firearm—not to mention probably in violation of Best Buy's policies for handling shoplifting. The average cashier's ability to administer lethal force is probably not a major influence on the prevalence of shoplifting in Texas.

In Texas if you aren't otherwise in the commission of a crime, you may use a weapon to prevent a crime. And yet the news was not filled with concealed carry permit owners drawing on people to do exactly that. I never bothered to get a permit but a friend who did told me the instructor heavily emphasized if you did use your weapon it would be minimum $25k in legal fees even if exonerated.

Now that permitless carry is legal it remains to be seen if there's an uptick in vigilantism, but I have my doubts.

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#238

Post by marcusverus » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:46 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #227

JackFr wrote: post #13

Mods, please correct headline. This hardly a story about Amazon. It's a story of how Northern California's choice not to prosecute theft has resulted in a massive increase in criminal activity. That CVS has to privately hire security in the face of $10 million/year of goods being brazenly looted out of its stores has little to do with any Amazon policy and more to do with the policies adopted by local district attorn…

> choice not to prosecute theft Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. "The judicial branch of California explains on its page about Prop 47 that the new law “reclassifies certain theft and drug possession offenses from felonies to misdemeanors.” Thanks to Prop 47, shoplifting offenses involving property valued at less than $950 are prosecuted as misdemeanors, not felonies, but they are still prosecuted. Such offenses are punisha…

That's a nice unattributed quote you've got there. Now for some actual data that say the exact opposite:

"The numbers show the prosecution rate for shoplifting cases involving a misdemeanor petty theft charge for a loss of $950 or less fell under [San Francisco DA Chesa] Boudin, from 70 percent under former District Attorney George Gascon in 2019 to 44 percent in 2020 and 50 percent as of mid-June 2021.

Prosecutors filed charges in 116 of 266 cases presented by police involving petty theft in 2020, compared to 450 of 647 cases in 2019, according to the data provided by the District Attorney’s Office."

https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/data-shows-chesa-boudin-pros...

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#239

Post by MichaelZuo » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #227

JackFr wrote: post #13

Mods, please correct headline. This hardly a story about Amazon. It's a story of how Northern California's choice not to prosecute theft has resulted in a massive increase in criminal activity. That CVS has to privately hire security in the face of $10 million/year of goods being brazenly looted out of its stores has little to do with any Amazon policy and more to do with the policies adopted by local district attorn…

> choice not to prosecute theft Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. "The judicial branch of California explains on its page about Prop 47 that the new law “reclassifies certain theft and drug possession offenses from felonies to misdemeanors.” Thanks to Prop 47, shoplifting offenses involving property valued at less than $950 are prosecuted as misdemeanors, not felonies, but they are still prosecuted. Such offenses are punisha…

There are quite a lot of folks in this thread claiming that they are not prosecuted at all in SF. As in police don’t even bother showing up. I’m not living there so I’m not sure what the on-the-ground situation is, do you mean that this is not the case?

Re: Retailers are spending millions to combat organized theft from stores

#240

Post by rayiner » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

kevinpet wrote: post #207

bko wrote: post #3

> The target was no ordinary shoplifter. He was part of a network of organized professionals, known as boosters, whom CVS had been monitoring for weeks. The company believed the group responsible for stealing almost $50 million in products over five years from dozens of stores in Northern California. The story isn't about people selling stolen goods on Amazon. It's about organized theft operations. One way to stop th…

I'm concerned about lawlessness, but if the only alternative is that $950 theft is a _felony_ that's messed up. This seems more like a case of not being able to deal with crime than lax sentencing.

Nobody will risk prison for $950 of stuff. If you make it basically a ticket, then you can easily get dozens of people to be able to steal a meaningful amount of stuff.