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The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

181–190 of 202 posts

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#181
post #5

I got down leveled when I moved to big tech. Spent two years completely remaking the product I was tasked to work on, while the two other engineers on my team, both a level above me, cheered me on and didn’t do much. I turned our product from a total waste about to be cancelled into a promising tech with some momentum, but I spent all my time coding instead of writing about coding, and I likely won’t get promoted aga…

Building or adjusting stuff on your own is unlikely to lead to a promotion. Guiding a group while being the main and most important contributor increases your chances. Working with other teams on a critical cross-team use case, increases chances even further. The main differentiating factor here is scope and impact of work the related amount of dependencies.

For your work to be easily recognized by others, one usually requires their peers' or manager's support. This means, asking for advice from more senior peers within and outside of your team and talking in 1on1s about the solutions you developed, problems you resolved, and discussing the business impact that the changes will bring product-wise. If no one knows about the product/platform being broken or suffering from performance problems in the first place, then it will be hard for them to value that the product is now working as expected.

Eligibility for promotion highly depends on the product that you are building. If you impact a product responsible for a sizeable portion of the revenue, visibility and impact is orders of magnitude easier to get. Further, the business impact, as defined by KPIs for the product, may need a few months to materialize and show a trend. Unless provided with sufficient observability and historical data, you may not even be able to show that the product is more reliable or stable due to changes in its architecture or performance improvements. Pouring more marketing money may lead to the same effects business wise on the top line (revenue).

Lastly, and most importantly, promotions depend on your manager. If managers are not incentivised for the development and growth of engineers they manage, but more as a function of the scope or size of the team they lead, the latter may be the easier path as team growth may occur naturally with less effort and friction on their end.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#182
At some point I realized I'm quite bad at engineering skills as well as politics skills required to be promoted at big companies, resulting in significant slower promotions than most people in the company.

After some years, I realized I'm better at the game of pretending to care, and put less effort and hours while still being paid 100% of compensation. Even more so thanks to remote work with covid. Now I find gratification in projects outside of work with this time.

Note that both strategies (getting promoted vs just working less time) increase your pay/hour, so just do whatever you're best at.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of a project like that? Or at least a hypothetical example if they are confidential. I can’t think of a project like that that people said couldn't be done, its usually just people saying “we cant do it at this time unless we get more time or reprioritize something else.”

Not OP, but I image they are more projects that span multiple teams, disciplines, and stakeholders. There's nothing (unless it hasn't been invented yet) that can't be implemented in software in a silo given infinite time, but the ability to deliver complex solutions to difficult business/process problems that require buy in and coordination from a lot of people are probably these kinds of projects, particularly if th…

Is the legacy vcs ClearCase or DesignSync?

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an L6 IC. Basically I had a track record of delivering projects that other engineers said couldn't be done yet were a high priority to upper management. That's actually on the (Google at least) ladder: "At this level...most Google-caliber generalist SWEs could not own and solve the problem this person is owning and solving." Note that even though I'm a coding-heavy L6 (meaning I spend ~50% of my time coding vs. t…

Can you give an example of a project like that? Or at least a hypothetical example if they are confidential. I can’t think of a project like that that people said couldn't be done, its usually just people saying “we cant do it at this time unless we get more time or reprioritize something else.”

My current project is confidential, but one from 2013-2014:

We had a bunch of UXR that showed that people liked iPhones because of the fancy snappy animations, and our execs really wanted to bring that to Google's webapps. At the time, there was this big perception that mobile web sites were slow and clunky and you absolutely had to go native app to get smooth 60fps transitions. I did some profiling with the Chrome profiler and found that the bulk of time was spent in layout & reflow, and that one single reflow would blow your entire frame budget and then some for 60fps on mobile. So then I went to the Chrome GPU team and got a quick tutorial about exactly which operations were handled on the GPU (basically just transform and WebGL, at the time), and put together a visual language that basically involved rendering portions of the webpage to GPU textures and manipulating them only with 2D transforms, which could be GPU-accelerated. The work later formed the foundation for how Material Design was implemented in Search.

As a side note, I learned a lot about how browsers work under the hood with that project, and one of the things I learned is that the entire premise that React was sold with was false! At the time, the big selling point with React is that "DOM manipulation is slow, so we create a virtual DOM that's fast and then diff the changes to the virtual DOM so we make only the minimal set of DOM changes we need." Except that every major browser by 2013 used a dirty-bit system for DOM manipulation, so changes to the DOM are actually quite fast (roughly the speed of a couple pointer manipulations in C) as long as you don't trigger reflow. And you can trigger reflow with any one of about 2 dozen method calls, as well as automatically when you return from a Javascript script fragment, so basically every Angular and JQuery website was triggering multiple reflows per event. React was fast because it was declarative and didn't let you execute user code until it was done batching up all DOM manipulations, it wasn't fast because of the virtual DOM. And I believe there have been re-implementations of the React API that do away with the virtual DOM and they are equally fast (oftentimes even faster, since they're simpler and don't need the DOM diffing), but at this point React is popular because it's popular and everyone knows the API, not because of any purported performance benefits.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#185
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tried to quit, but relented when I was convinced not to How did they convince you not to? Please tell me they have offered you something concrete and haven't just made empty promises or said nice things. (I'm running on the assumption the unlimited holiday you mentioned is company policy rather than something they've done just for you, so by "something concrete" I very specifically mean compensation - salary, bon…

It sounds very much like he decided to take a month vacation instead of quitting. He could still quit at the end of the month. Better to get paid to unwind and/or search for another job.

Oh, for sure. And I'd definitely take the opportunity to look around for something else if there's nothing more concrete on the table (and perhaps even if there is). I mean he now knows their real opinion of his value either way.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#186
post #21
post #5

I got down leveled when I moved to big tech. Spent two years completely remaking the product I was tasked to work on, while the two other engineers on my team, both a level above me, cheered me on and didn’t do much. I turned our product from a total waste about to be cancelled into a promising tech with some momentum, but I spent all my time coding instead of writing about coding, and I likely won’t get promoted aga…

Are you me? I spent the last 3 years completely redeveloping the foundation of our platform which will save the company millions of dollars a year. I didn't do it alone or anything. But I started the project, was the only one to work on it full time throughout the whole project, defined the underlying architecture, and implemented most of the lowest layers. I poured all my energy into the project. We launched beginni…

I am currently learning that platform work in most places means nothing if you cannot point at an actual metric that management at appropriate level cares about, changing in a very tangible way; or unless your users are your peers, and you can be so good/promote yourself so well that your sheer reputation helps (and I'm not sure the latter even works in most places).

I've actually previously worked at a platform team for a ton of internal customers, and then at a B2B startup selling platforms - that's where you get promoted for platform development, cause platform is the product and reducing request latency or whatever is something VPs care about... in my current team I have a long list of impactful (on platform level) improvements I could make to infrastructure and libraries, engineering fundamentals, etc... that I'm not doing, cause I'm doing some boring work that will move some number, or sitting in meetings with 3 teams trying to get out a feature, that customers (or management) care about for some strange reason ;) E.g. perf work only matters when we want to save on server budget, and we have to decide to save on it beforehand, and it still doesn't matter as much as shipping some new widget or a metric change. Or e.g. I created a library for X that ended up being used by a bunch of people in a few teams (not the original goal). I am pretty sure nobody above IC level cares. All I get for that are occasional bug reports and a perception that I might be an expert at X... if the library doesn't contribute to my career via the latter, there's no other way it will :)

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#187
post #158
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rare, but possible. Known of v high level example that is just incredibly disciplined about how they spend their time (e.g. "I did this, but was slowed significantly by poor code over that. Estimate about 30% time loss. I'm going to spend N weeks more in this area, so it's worth me spending 3.5 days fixing that code, but no more. I think I can fix it in about 2 days, so I will fix it. If I can't see the end of t…

It's not rare at all in my experience. You just have to have a combination of skills that pays more than average on the open market (big data runtimes or distributed systems, say, or AI, in addition to other domain expertise perhaps), and you'll be L6 or L7 IC, no problem. No managerial duties whatsoever. L7 is more nebulous, but L6 is absolutely doable for anyone with a modicum of marketable skill. You see, in spite…

That sounds entirely logical, but unfortunately having never worked in a FAANG or FAANG-like company[1] I can't tell whether this is the reality or not.

I would very much like other readers here with experience in FAANG or FAANG-like companies to comment on your comment.

[1] Most Corporates and enterprises are different - they resolutely refuse to match based on market-value of skills. There's also very little a developer (senior or not) can do to have a company-wide impact, because the fiefdoms that are in place will resist any attempt to "lose" their territory.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#188
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Before accepting any offer, put all promises into writing. Attach milestones, even if you just make them up, i.e. salary will increase when company receives next funding round. Send this to the employer. If they balk you know know they were just telling you what you wanted to hear. Be wary.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but none of what you wrote is realistic. There's no such thing as putting a promise of a quick-promotion into writing. No company would agree to that, nor should they (what if you suck once you start?). And I'm highly skeptical a company will agree to a milestones-rewards plan for an individual employee. If someone wrote such a proposal and sent it to me, I'd immediately reject them in…

> If someone wrote such a proposal…

So, in this scenario:

* hiring manager tells the candidate they’ll get a “quick promotion”, but only if they “don’t suck”.

* candidate responds with proposed clarifications of “speedy” and “suck”.

* hiring manager drops candidate from consideration.

Did I get this right?

> And I'm highly skeptical a company will agree to a milestones-rewards plan for an individual employee.

And yet hiring managers play fast and loose with employee expectations all the time, even if their company would never honor such promises as a matter of policy.

How would you propose a candidate determine whether the hiring manager is making promises in good faith?

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#190

The thing that many folks don't understand is that it's not that "Titles don't matter", it's that "Titles don't matter when compared across companies". There's not a universal definition of say, "senior software engineer", so comparing titles across companies will always be an apples/oranges exercise. Titles do matter, but only when in the proper context.

There ARE formal definitions of positions, title/rank, and requirements for experience and education, (as well as pay range) defined by the US Federal Government's Office of Personnel Management. These are used for determining staffing requirements in government contracting and hiring.

Most mature government contracting companies follow these standards.

In private industry, though - it's like Lord of the Flies. As far as I've seen.

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