The art of not taking things personally • Hacker News Board

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#161

Post by sammalloy » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #115

sammalloy wrote: post #51

> Every Negative Emotion is Driven by an Unmet Need > When you notice a negative emotion in someone, get curious about what that emotion might be — and try to uncover the unmet need that accompanies it. ‘Are you feeling X because you’re needing Y?’. I have a sense that this practice could change the world and make life better for everyone. I wonder what it would take for everyone to start doing it.

This is how abuse victims are often socialized and what they do. The people who stay in abusive relationships/workplaces or move from one abusive relationship to another. They assume themselves responsible for other peoples emotions. If others react negatively, they see it as their duty to adjust everything to that. And when they talk about abuse with people whobhave this expectation, this expectation, they get blame…

I agree, but if you read the full text that I quoted out of context, it briefly concludes with the importance of setting boundaries, so your concerns are taken into account. I think if you read the entire text you'll agree that this isn't a problem.

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#162

Post by smackeyacky » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

exo-pla-net wrote: post #158

smackeyacky wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its more a guide for pandering to the narcicissts who infect our lives and make us miserable. If you find yourself having to perform these rituals in the workspace, stop yourself. When dealing with emotionally damaged people who never made it to fully functional adult, speak to them in a monotone and don't engage with the emotional manipulation they are attempting. This will confuse them, then enrage them, then final…

Do not empathize with people who are damaged or unsophisticated! Instead, enrage them. Exploit their weakness to break them and bend them to your will. -Jesus

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I spent my life being a histrionic dick, I would fully expect to be treated in a way that minimised the damage I could do to other people. Containing and minimising the narcissist in the workplace is the only way to remain sane. Try working with one and use the principles in the thread article and see how it works out. I've tried it, the consequences were brutal.

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#163

Post by macrolocal » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

exo-pla-net wrote: post #158

smackeyacky wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its more a guide for pandering to the narcicissts who infect our lives and make us miserable. If you find yourself having to perform these rituals in the workspace, stop yourself. When dealing with emotionally damaged people who never made it to fully functional adult, speak to them in a monotone and don't engage with the emotional manipulation they are attempting. This will confuse them, then enrage them, then final…

Do not empathize with people who are damaged or unsophisticated! Instead, enrage them. Exploit their weakness to break them and bend them to your will. -Jesus

In a sense, your last two sentences describe exactly what he did to the Roman empire over a couple centuries!

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#164

Post by exo-pla-net » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

smackeyacky wrote: post #162

exo-pla-net wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do not empathize with people who are damaged or unsophisticated! Instead, enrage them. Exploit their weakness to break them and bend them to your will. -Jesus

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I spent my life being a histrionic dick, I would fully expect to be treated in a way that minimised the damage I could do to other people. Containing and minimising the narcissist in the workplace is the only way to remain sane. Try working with one and use the principles in the thread article and see how it works out. I've tried it, the consequences were brutal.

If I were a histrionic dick, I'd hope that more sophisticated people would use their superior vantage point to help me mature, instead of enraging and walking over me.

As it happens, I was a histrionic and narcissistic dick. Sometimes more mature people exploited my weakness, as you're suggesting, making me look foolish and getting their way. They'd win the battle, but they'd start a war. I'd make it a mission to do damage to them for embarrassing me, and I'd generally succeed. I'd often take damage myself in this war, but a pyrrhic victory was fine. I'd get my revenge.

I didn't change until my 20's, largely steered by someone who fully understood my limitations and less than prosocial proclivities. They showed me some compassion, gently guiding me toward being a decent person.

One can claim it's unfair that dicks should be treated with greater empathy and kindness than they give others. But they're not going to change otherwise. And underneath, they're indeed damaged. I'd rather live in a world where we help damaged people, instead of just kicking them out of the way.

We have limited capacity to save the humans around us, of course. If you truly can't help, such as with strangers or coworkers, the best practice against unhinged narcissists is called "tactical empathy" [1]. You can cool them off without creating a war.

I can guarantee that some of the people you "enraged" were subsequently plotting against you. Maybe you have a high tolerance for that, but I don't want people plotting to hurt me; that's scary. To avoid that, you can use tactical empathy to gracefully cool them off, while still giving them nothing. It's more humane, and it's safer.

[1] https://discord.com/moderation/360060487093-443:-Ban-Evasion...

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#165

Post by exo-pla-net » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

macrolocal wrote: post #163

exo-pla-net wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do not empathize with people who are damaged or unsophisticated! Instead, enrage them. Exploit their weakness to break them and bend them to your will. -Jesus

In a sense, your last two sentences describe exactly what he did to the Roman empire over a couple centuries!

The lingering wrath of Jesus, collapser of empires.

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#166

Post by smackeyacky » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 12:24 AM UTC

exo-pla-net wrote: post #164

smackeyacky wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I spent my life being a histrionic dick, I would fully expect to be treated in a way that minimised the damage I could do to other people. Containing and minimising the narcissist in the workplace is the only way to remain sane. Try working with one and use the principles in the thread article and see how it works out. I've tried it, the consequences were brutal.

If I were a histrionic dick, I'd hope that more sophisticated people would use their superior vantage point to help me mature, instead of enraging and walking over me. As it happens, I was a histrionic and narcissistic dick. Sometimes more mature people exploited my weakness, as you're suggesting, making me look foolish and getting their way. They'd win the battle, but they'd start a war. I'd make it a mission to do…

This is good advice, it really is. But I'm not jesus and on top of that, I really don't care about anybody plotting against me because I don't work in a corporate environment where I have to pander to anybody. I'm old and I'm done pandering. I sympathise with the idea that there are people who are insane to deal with that should be treated with empathy to steer them towards the right path. I don't see that as my job - it just encourages people to behave worse in my experience. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile as the old saying goes. The best thing to do for your fellow man is protect them from the world's arseholes as much as you can, which is going to leave a few narcissistic casualties along the way. It's a trade off like anything.

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#167

Post by svat » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

majkinetor wrote: post #156

> 10. Every Negative Emotion is Driven by an Unmet Need. Wow, lets completely avoid biology with that "every". Having high level of specific hormones (like parathyroid) that makes you feel negative is hardly "unmet need"...

They are just different perspectives, not mutually exclusive. Maybe biology means someone has a higher need for (say) security, or makes their need less easily met (resulting in more anxiety, say, than for other people in similar situations).

I guess one could debate the word "driven"—if my phone fell and shattered, was this event driven by gravity, or by my dropping it, or by the fact that I were careless? Depending on the context and one's preferences one may prefer one explanations over the others, but they are not mutually exclusive; it's IMO helpful to be at least aware of these multiple perspectives.

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#168

Post by jcun4128 » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 11:24 AM UTC

hnarn wrote: post #129

Nothing trains you to not take things personally like being put through the ringer of modern day online dating. Forcing myself to deal with rejection hasn't been a very pleasant experience, but I'm absolutely sure I've improved because of it. As soon as you can truly and honestly accept that in the vast majority of cases, you do not have the power to change people's perception or attraction to you, it's not only libe…

Haha online dating is brutal, idk if you have to pay or what. I just stopped as it was making me sad.

The last bit is true, high standards works both ways.

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#169

Post by throwaway98797 » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #79

throwaway98797 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I view fragile and sensitive in the same light. Though, I do mean it with a negative connotation. That being said, im not sure i follow the fallacy part. I’m guessing you mean that people who use fragility are doing it shut down discussion. I tend to use it to highlight that there’s a set of people with whom I won’t speak freely for fear of hurting them because their are sensitive. I don’t do this out of nobleness to…

> That being said, im not sure i follow the fallacy part. I’m guessing you mean that people who use fragility are doing it shut down discussion. I tend to use it to highlight that there’s a set of people with whom I won’t speak freely for fear of hurting them because their are sensitive. I don’t do this out of nobleness to not harm, i do it to avoid negative emotions from them. > In a way I am fragile as well. Yes, y…

Probably too late to get a response.

It isn’t their arguments that I’m avoiding it is their emotional response to my questions. They may have valid perspective, but if I can’t ask questions and feel safe doing so I won’t.

I think a person being fragile is independent of their arguments. Unfortunately, people who I label as fragile I won’t ever get to hear their arguments fully articulated due to their (as the person) fragility.

Re: The art of not taking things personally

#170

Post by cgtyoder » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

zz865 wrote: post #64

The problem I'm getting as I get older I'm starting to overshoot and not care about anyone's opinions, turning into a grumpy old man who doesnt care any more. :)

I have definitely seen that happen before. It's good that you are at least noticing it! If you want to move out of that mindset, talking to a counselor of some sort is probably going to be useful. Change is hard, but it can happen. Good luck.