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Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

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Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#141

Post by mytailorisrich »

mmarq wrote: post #139
mytailorisrich wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill, and again I don't understand why. An error to a few people (100 out of millions) and that resulted in nothing at all is not evidence of nefarious policy. Sending payslips and council tax bills is hardly a problem for anyone who's been living and working in the UK, and that was a standard EU-wide procedure. It was not designed to be difficult or make people fail, it…

No, it’s not a standard procedure in any EU country I’m aware of. I’ve never heard of anybody outside of the UK sending payslips and doctor notes and reference letters and mobile phone bills to prove their residence status. If hundreds of thousands of people weren’t at risk of deportation, the Settlement Scheme would not have been necessary.

It is standard procedure in order to get formal proof of permanent residence. The thing is that no-one bothers with it because it is usually not needed. The procedure existed before the referendum, it did not change because of the result. What changed is that people suddenly thought that it may be useful and decided to apply.

For instance, just to stay in English, if you're in Ireland this is the form: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form-EUTR2.pdf/Files/Form-EUT...

It's pretty much the exact same as the British one used to be, and as I already mentioned this is because it is based on an EU procedure, and so will be pretty much the same everywhere:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-fo...

Note that some EU countries also require EU/EEA nationals to register with the police/local authorities, which the UK did not and so actually made life for EU citizens simpler that quite a few other EU countries.

Another reality check here, apparently.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#142

Post by w_t_payne »

collaborative wrote: post #132
biscotte_ wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« my children and wife started to experience a level of racially motivated abuse that we had not seen before.« To which both people replied saying « same for us ». You’re welcome.

Still making stuff up. Read again

Sadly, behind every person who is prepared to act upon his or her racial animus with acts of physical violence directed against the innocent and helpless, there is an army of equally malevolent supporters and enablers who willingly compound the harm and trauma with gaslighting and similar abusive and manipulative acts.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#143

Post by JetSetWilly »

mmarq wrote: post #140
JetSetWilly wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all in the few weeks since 2016 referendum. It was not a sustained increase, and further it was in a period of national hysteria following the vote when such issues were common currency. 2021 hate crimes are not above those of eg 2014 so I fail to see how the UK has become some xenophobic country.

I should remind you that this started with you saying I was making up anecdotes because I had an ideological axe to grind. Now you are moving the target. Before we go there, would you admit that the Brexit referendum caused an increase of xenophobic incidents now that we have proof that it did?

I would say that a transient spike 5 years ago is not enough to make the case that the country has had some fundamental and permanent attitude shift post-Brexit.

However, you are right that it does lend credence to complaints around the referendum period that it was a difficult time. But I am still reluctant to draw long term conclusions from that.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#144

Post by mmarq »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #141
mmarq wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not a standard procedure in any EU country I’m aware of. I’ve never heard of anybody outside of the UK sending payslips and doctor notes and reference letters and mobile phone bills to prove their residence status. If hundreds of thousands of people weren’t at risk of deportation, the Settlement Scheme would not have been necessary.

It is standard procedure in order to get formal proof of permanent residence. The thing is that no-one bothers with it because it is usually not needed. The procedure existed before the referendum, it did not change because of the result. What changed is that people suddenly thought that it may be useful and decided to apply. For instance, just to stay in English, if you're in Ireland this is the form: http://www.ini…

> Note that some EU countries also require EU/EEA nationals to register with the police/local authorities, which the UK did not and so actually made life for EU citizens simpler that quite a few other EU countries.

Also in the UK you have to register with the local authorities (read the local council), but then the government pretends you didn’t and asks for doctor notes and TV license bills.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#145

Post by mytailorisrich »

mmarq wrote: post #144
mytailorisrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is standard procedure in order to get formal proof of permanent residence. The thing is that no-one bothers with it because it is usually not needed. The procedure existed before the referendum, it did not change because of the result. What changed is that people suddenly thought that it may be useful and decided to apply. For instance, just to stay in English, if you're in Ireland this is the form: http://www.ini…

> Note that some EU countries also require EU/EEA nationals to register with the police/local authorities, which the UK did not and so actually made life for EU citizens simpler that quite a few other EU countries. Also in the UK you have to register with the local authorities (read the local council), but then the government pretends you didn’t and asks for doctor notes and TV license bills.

You certainly don't have to in the UK. In fact you cannot because that does not exist... I'm obviously talking about registration for foreigners as indicated in link I posted, not registering for council tax or on election roll, which are obviously completely different and apply to everyone.

Also, I don't see why you would need doctor notes or TV license bills...

I don't think you are being in good faith here and this is getting very tedious.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#146

Post by mmarq »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #145
mmarq wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that some EU countries also require EU/EEA nationals to register with the police/local authorities, which the UK did not and so actually made life for EU citizens simpler that quite a few other EU countries. Also in the UK you have to register with the local authorities (read the local council), but then the government pretends you didn’t and asks for doctor notes and TV license bills.

You certainly don't have to in the UK. In fact you cannot because that does not exist... I'm obviously talking about registration for foreigners as indicated in link I posted, not registering for council tax or on election roll, which are obviously completely different and apply to everyone. Also, I don't see why you would need doctor notes or TV license bills... I don't think you are being in good faith here and thi…

You are mistaken, Italy and Germany do require all residents to register with local authorities (respectively “comune” and “bürgeramt”, which are roughly equivalent to the British local council) and not just foreigners. So it is the exact same thing. But in Italy that’s enough to prove your residence status 30 years from now, while the UK asks foreigners to send 5 year old doctor notes and council tax bills. If this weren’t a problem, the Windrush scandal would not have happened.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#147

Post by gpderetta »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #143
mmarq wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should remind you that this started with you saying I was making up anecdotes because I had an ideological axe to grind. Now you are moving the target. Before we go there, would you admit that the Brexit referendum caused an increase of xenophobic incidents now that we have proof that it did?

I would say that a transient spike 5 years ago is not enough to make the case that the country has had some fundamental and permanent attitude shift post-Brexit. However, you are right that it does lend credence to complaints around the referendum period that it was a difficult time. But I am still reluctant to draw long term conclusions from that.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-...

There was a peak after the referendum, but there is also a long term trend. The cause of the trend can't all be attributed to brexit though (the causality might be reversed for example).

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#148

Post by CyberRabbi »

eCa wrote: post #76
CyberRabbi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the entitlement people from other countries feel to live in my country. I don’t feel the same entitlement to live in their country. Also, just because they are rich or can start a tech company doesn’t make them any more entitled to live wherever they want any more than anyone else. Just a very bizarre stance IMO and it seems one-sided.

A lot of British people living in Spain certainly have expressed a similar entitlement. And many of them voted for Brexit.

That subset of British people similarly have a bizarre position IMO. Entitlement to live in a foreign country is misplaced regardless of your country of origin. The ability to live in another country has always been at the sole discretion of that country’s government.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#149

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #99
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The long term trend has been greatly softening attitudes towards immigration. I strongly dispute this. The UK has anything but a softened attitude towards immigration in recent years. It was bad enough that it made me leave because I felt the longer term trend is not going to be good for me and my family and I'm a white European. You might not see it as much if you're not directly affected, but the discourse on the…

> I think the UK both wants to think of itself as world open, but a huge part of the population does not like it. Now it's conflicted of what it wants as a country. Yes isn't it great that we live in a democracy, and have the population decide which direction they would like the country to go in.

Unfortunately you only have one country and it hosts a population that’s split right in the middle on that issue.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#150

Post by nbraem »

CyberRabbi wrote: post #33
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

I don’t understand the entitlement people from other countries feel to live in my country. I don’t feel the same entitlement to live in their country. Also, just because they are rich or can start a tech company doesn’t make them any more entitled to live wherever they want any more than anyone else. Just a very bizarre stance IMO and it seems one-sided.

A dice is rolled and you're born in the world in some country, borders drawn on a map centuries ago by a person from another country. A world sliced and diced by imaginary lines, making groups out of people that in the best case share some common "culture". You are saying that in this world, everyone needs to live in the little territory that they were born?
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