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Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

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Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#31

Post by JetSetWilly »

rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

> My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania.

The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In international studies, the UK scores very highly on all such measures, usually much better than continental European countries. See e.g. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-rac...

I don't understand this compulsive need of pro-EU voters to construct massive straw men about brexit voters and Brexit Britain. It is possible and reasonable for a country to decide it doesn't want to be a part of the European "project" without being a racist xenophobic hellhole.

On the original article, it is strange it never covers how easy it is for someone in India or the Uk or Africa to immigrate to Germany. The UK has mass immigration still from all over the world - when you have considerably more potential immigrants than you can reasonably accommodate is when countries start getting picky and having rules.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#32

Post by rich_sasha »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #14
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

> I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign In USA? It just depends how rich you are. Does that make things better?

If I'm from the Republic of South Abroadia, and getting a taxi in Silicon Valley, will I hear a rant about immigrants? Will I get funny looks etc?

Maybe yes, I'm only taking about my impressions, I never worked in the US. Certainly doesn't seem to project that image, to me.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#33

Post by CyberRabbi »

rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

I don’t understand the entitlement people from other countries feel to live in my country. I don’t feel the same entitlement to live in their country.

Also, just because they are rich or can start a tech company doesn’t make them any more entitled to live wherever they want any more than anyone else.

Just a very bizarre stance IMO and it seems one-sided.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#34

Post by mytailorisrich »

klelatti wrote: post #12

The UK Home Office has long had a 'hostile environment' [1] policy so what's changed is essentially its extension to a wider group of people (EU nationals). When you combine this approach with administrative incompetence (eg but not limited to Windrush [2] where people who legally had the right to stay were deported to countries where they had never lived as adults) you get some very unpleasant situations indeed. Not…

From experience I don't think the UK is bad. It was very good before Brexit, now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all and the procedures relatively straightforward.

My experience with France is much, much worse, for instance.

I don't think the current UK system deters people in itself. It's relative and people take the path of least resistance: If you're from the EU then it has become more difficult to move to the UK whereas you can still freely move around the EU + Norway and Switzerland so perhaps this influences some people within the EU. But if you look further than that (e.g. non-EU person trying to move to EU, UK, US, etc) then the UK is certainly not deterring anyone.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#35

Post by CaptainZapp »

secretsatan wrote: post #18

Speaking as a UK immigrant to Switzerland, even though it is not in the EU, Brexit is just a massive pain. Switzerland has a somewhat strained relationship with the EU, but does have lots of bilateral agreements, like free movement in the Schengen zone, now I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip. Not to mention job prospects, it used to be Swiss, then EU then the rest of t…

> now I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip.

You don't, in theory. However, within a certain zone from the border border agents have the right to ask you for identification. If you can't provide any they will take you along to determine your identity.

So while it's usually not a requirement to pass a border within the Schengen zone I highly recommend that you have proper identification on you.

Same goes for flying, at least before Covid. It was really rare that I even had to provide id within intra Schengen flights and if I was asked it was usually by the airline at the gate. The normal process was checking in automatically and then just badge yourself through the various checkpoints up and including the plane (depending on airport). Still, I would not recommend not to have a valid id or a passport when you fly. No matter if it's strictly required or not.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#36

Post by frereubu »

collaborative wrote: post #22
w_t_payne wrote: post #5

Brexit was an absolute tragedy for my family. Immediately after the referendum was lost, my children and wife started to experience a level of racially motivated abuse that we had not seen before. This reached a level where my wife felt she could no longer remain in the country and arranged for us to relocate as a family to mainland Europe. The move was not kind for me, and soon after I arrived I had a breakdown and…

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you. Brexit also put a lot of psychological pressure on my wife. She's from a Baltic country, but during Brexit, she'd constantly be asked if she was Polish for no reason at all. -"Hi, nice to meet you" -"Hi, are you Polish?" Nothing against Polish people of course, but it made her start to gradually lose it. Each new instance would bring tears for days Luckily, it seems Brexit…

There is a divide between attitudes to continental Europeans in the UK though. I'm British and my wife is Spanish, and although she feels much more unwelcome now it's nothing compared to some of the racially-charged rubbish that I've heard people openly say about people from eastern European countries.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#37

Post by eptcyka »

collaborative wrote: post #22
w_t_payne wrote: post #5

Brexit was an absolute tragedy for my family. Immediately after the referendum was lost, my children and wife started to experience a level of racially motivated abuse that we had not seen before. This reached a level where my wife felt she could no longer remain in the country and arranged for us to relocate as a family to mainland Europe. The move was not kind for me, and soon after I arrived I had a breakdown and…

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you. Brexit also put a lot of psychological pressure on my wife. She's from a Baltic country, but during Brexit, she'd constantly be asked if she was Polish for no reason at all. -"Hi, nice to meet you" -"Hi, are you Polish?" Nothing against Polish people of course, but it made her start to gradually lose it. Each new instance would bring tears for days Luckily, it seems Brexit…

Me and my partner are in the same boat as your wife - we're from the baltic states and when people are curious about our origins, they ask if we're polish or not. I don't really hold it against people, but having to reassert your own ethnicity gets tiring. Most people are not aware of the country I come from anyway.

As a side note of the knowledge the general public holds, it seems like the history knowledge people get out of highschool is severely lacking.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#38

Post by raverbashing »

moogly wrote: post #27

> demands that are almost impossible to meet (can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years?) Yes, easily. That's some hyperbolic braggadocio. If you're a maniacal globetrotter, sure, I can see it being annoying or maybe even difficult, but "almost impossible"? Get a grip.

The person is a journalist. I think that implies an order of magnitude more international travel than the average person.

Surely, not impossible, but might not be too trivial neither.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#39

Post by the-dude »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #2

The challenge with most startup/entrepreneur visas is that different countries have very different rules and people don't show for these visas and compare them. Most people are forced to go through this because they are required by one way or another to head to a country. That in turn means that there is no desire to make the process any better. Relatedly Brexit is a really odd thing. I feel like absolutely nobody is…

> are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now

Are you saying they should? I am from and in NL, and with all furthering EU integration there was the 'promise' from politicians it would be for the better for anyone. People who doubted this, for example truck drivers, were discounted as 'plebs' and not sophisticated enough.

Guess what happened when free movement of labor was granted to the Eastern block? Citizens from these countries quickly replaced the local drivers to the point Dutch transport agencies engineered mechanisms which guaranteed to could keep selecting foreign labor.

For the plebs this was of course no surprise. The ruling class just postulates 'everybody should become a knowledge worker'. I am highly educated but keep close tabs with all classes in my community.

The EU is mostly a trade bloc, a market for labor, where commodization (of labor) thrives. Primarily beneficial for companies and government (workers). It is my opinion we should build strong local economies with opportunities for all.

My only motivation for writing this is to present a differing viewpoint on the truck driver story.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#40

Post by aborsy »

Globalization brought winners and losers. It was supposed to lift all boats when enthusiastically developed in 80s and 90s by academics, but it didn’t. And it’s not pretty for a lot of people and societies.

I understand the backlash, with Brexit vote and beyond.

I don’t like the criticism that UK people receive on choice they made for their society.

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